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  1. #11
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    My ex is the same way - he loves punk music, collects horror films, loves underground cinema and independent film ...he's totally artistic, and in a way that is unique, not just oh yeah he's a little artsy...so for a long time I thought he was SFP...

    However, looking back now I can't see how I ever thought that, except for my stupid stereotypes about artistic people.

    He has A LIST, a list that he's kept since he was seven years old and collected every single movie on the list...everything has to be JUST SO...and it's so much more than that...his comfort level is very based upon what is familiar, and too much REAL newness actually frightens him...he always puts his family first, and is very control freak-y in that ESxJ way...he's also incredible loyal, and prizes sexual fidelity above even kindness or understanding...not that an ESFP couldn't be loyal, but infidelity in his mind completely justifies murder...I could think of another million reasons why he's so damn SFJ, but yeah.
    wow! sounds like we dated the same guy. haha. instead of the list, however, it was his movie collection being in alphabetical order. and same with the sexual fidelity over kindness and understanding. he could be scarily aggressive about things that went against what he valued.

    i've actually somehow managed to date two different ESFJ's. supposedly as an ISFP, this is my perfect or ideal match. i beg to differ. Si/Fe greatly clashed with my Fi/Se. the other ESFJ however, wasn't nearly as scarily aggressive to the one mentioned above. he actually wasn't aggressive at all. but would complain and complain about things not being done the way he liked.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
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  2. #12
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    My ESFJ was aggressive. Stuck in bad childhood patterns, modeling his past exposure far too much. Very loving and intense and affectionate, though, as a contrast. He also keeps his film collection in alphabetical order and will have a screaming fit if something goes awry when he's alphabetizing.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    ^lol to jeffsters comment.


    i went away from point... oh yeah... so if he is an ISFP, he does indeed sound like a conflicted and unhappy one. as i've gotten older, i've noticed myself acting in ways as you've described here. i live with three male roommates, and all of which drive me up a wall. i constantly nag about dishes, trash, cleanliness, etc. i don't know if this is just learned behavior from my own parents coming in to play or whether it's because i would simply be better off living alone... i feel like my roommates are taking over spaces i feel are mine. spaces, which i strive to keep aesthetically pleasing and clean. i also feel like everyone should pull their own weight, and all responsibility shouldn't be left upon my own shoulders, and yet i've been put in position of playing "mom" and making sure all is well. so i become very frustrated a lot, which leads to anger a lot of the time.

    i don't know if my own story is of any help... perhaps he's lost a connection to himself. what i mean by that is, maybe he doesn't get enough time alone to draw, read, write, create music, hike, or whatever it is that he might have done once upon a time that made him happy. i've learned that using our Se more leads to great happiness and fulfillment in ISFP's. so, maybe he's just missing some sort of creative outlet in his life and is getting too caught up in mundane details of everyday life as he has no release.
    Dear Neverland,

    your comment has been very valuable to me. I am very sure that he is an isfp even so his behavior seem to be very SJ at times. He is far too relaxed and playful most of the time. He even tells me or point out behavior of SJ that he feels is anal and he normally can’t connect to this. One thing that is also very ISFP in his behavior is his tendency to dislike mainstream und to be very suspicious of crowds. I have friends and a sister of that type. This is why I am pretty confident that his assessment of being isfp is correct.

    So when I discovered that an isfp could be so upset about tidiness and rules in his house, it came as a surprise to me. I think you are making a very good point, when you say that he might be thinking that we are invading his space. I have come to feel the same about his behavior. He has mentioned more than once, that it is important to him, that he has everything in place and the reason for this, is his desire to keep everything aesthetically pleasing and he considers breaking those rules by us as an infringement of his territory.
    He takes it as a personal offence if you don’t put things back the way he has arranged them. Like someone has been mean not to recognize the effort that he has taken to create a pleasing environment. It does not help even you ensure him that it was not meant this way.

    As I said he does not show that behavior every day. It is more like a sudden fit. It seems to depend on his moods and whether he had a good day or not. That is what makes his behavior so unpredictable to me.
    Last edited by maerzhase; 10-30-2010 at 10:09 AM.
    Thoughts die the moment they are embodied by words. (Arthur Schopenhauer)

  4. #14
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    hmm... being an introvert... he'll lean towards low energy. and having a full time job will use up a lot of the energy that he has. so i can understand how when he does have free time, he's a little less willing to use it towards other activities that might boost his mood.

    in my past relationship, i was involved with an INFP. and though ISFP's lack Si... our Se is what upholds our desire to keep things clean-it's aesthetics. Intuitives are some of the absolute messiest people ever! haha. my INFP ex would drive me absolutely crazy. he was an artist, and always had his art tools everywhere. he eventually went into carving, and would carve inside! i'd find wood chunks and bits everywhere, daily! even in the bed!! ugh! eventually, we decided the house we lived in was too small, considering both of our desires for alone time (since we were both introverts) and our various hobbies. we moved into a house where we could share a bedroom, and then he'd have his own personal art studio that he could dirty up as he pleased, and i had my own study, where i could go to read, draw, listen to music or just sit in silence as i pleased in an environment i created and enjoyed. this turned out great for us, as i was no longer flustered about him messing up the house, and we each had a space of our own. a space where he could unwind all alone might be a key to him lightening up? as ISFP's we do have a great concern for the aesthetics of our homes, but perhaps a conversation with him involving the fact that you can't read his mind or know exactly every little detail of the way he likes things might be key as well. he may very well just have to adjust to the fact that he does live with other people, and the house will reflect that it is lived in.

    another thing that might help him, is getting him to read more about his personality type. it could help him tap into aspects of himself that he may have shut off due to the way he was raised or societal standards.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by maerzhase View Post
    Dear Neverland,

    your comment has been very valuable to me. I am very sure that he is an isfp even so his behavior seem to be very SJ at times. He is far too relaxed and playful most of the time. He even tells me or point out behavior of SJ that he feels is anal and he normally can’t connect to this. One thing that is also very ISFP in his behavior is his tendency to dislike mainstream und to be very suspicious of crowds. I have friends and a sister of that type. This is why I am pretty confident that his assessment of being isfp is correct.
    SFJs can be relaxed and playful, and they can also not relate to other SJs. This does not make him an SFP. The ISFJ I know can be playful and relaxed, and doesn't relate to a lot of more socially conservative SJs. My ESFJ could be very playful, and actually, if you go by function theory, people with Fe as their dom/aux function can use their awareness of what is socially "correct" to buck against it - this is not unheard of.

    You're honestly making him sound even more like an SJ by saying he became a teacher like his father because he thought there were no other options when he graduated.

    You're also talking about him feeling compelled to support others, especially women, feeling guilty about putting his own needs first, and how he cannot stand up for himself. ISFJs are also known for being nice and compromising, until they have these little outbursts, and those outbursts are often comicly stereotyped as being about things like tile grout, spots on the sink, or unproperly rinsed dishes. This guy is a walking ISFJ stereotype.

    I'll take my leave now, though, since you're so convinced he's ISFP.

  6. #16
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    My isfp is like that about cleanliness too - to a degree. In other words, he's really pissy about others messing up the area (especially "his" area) but doesn't seem to be bothered by his own messy habits. He's also similar in the "how do you not see this is how it should be?!" which is probably from his upbringing with his mom (suspected esfj). Mine is definitely not a J, even though he's not easy-going all the time (who is?). So I don't think that's cause enough to doubt he's isfp.

    Actually, I'm kinda like that too. Not a good habit. It might be a little about control. It's really frustrating to come home to relax, to a place you know should be clean because that's how you left it, and find that someone else has left garbage/clutter everywhere. I'm kinda picky about how I like my space to be, and if I'm going to put in the effort to clean something, it's really frustrating to see it become dirty again thanks to someone else's laziness/carelessness/whatever.

    I wouldn't take the complaining as an indication something is wrong in the relationship - some people are just like that. If it's really bothering you though, you should talk to him about it and figure out a compromise. Maybe you'll try to clean more often if he nags you less. Since he's often complaining about it and he's isfp, that's usually an indication that it's really really bothering him. Otherwise they will tend to avoid conflict more often than not. Sometimes with isfps it takes a lot of your attention to figure out what makes them happy/unhappy, and you can make them happy by paying close attention to their reactions and thinking of that in the future.

    Does he know how upset he's making you? If not, he needs to know! You have a right to be treated with respect just as he has a right to live in a "reasonably" clean house. Your definition of reasonably clean is probably going to need some compromise. We can't really be objective here; for all we know you're a hoarder and he's totally reasonable, or you're perfectly tidy and he's being a control freak. Probably it's in the middle, or even elements of both. Your compromise is probably going to include a more objective way of splitting up housecleaning because right now it sounds like you both feel like it's not evenly balanced - like most people, probably!!

    A really important thing that you might be missing: SPs usually do not care about good intentions. I mean, they're great and all, especially when we believe you, but actions are way more important. If you say you're sorry and didn't mean to upset him and so on but keep doing it, you're implying that you don't care enough to realize what you're doing and change. So your good intentions are not really going to appease him. He's going to wait and see if you actually meant it enough to change.
    -end of thread-

  7. #17

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    My isfp is like that about cleanliness too - to a degree. In other words, he's really pissy about others messing up the area (especially "his" area) but doesn't seem to be bothered by his own messy habits.
    This is what I find in my friend as well. He often messes up his place and even invades my space, when we work together on the same desk. It really looks like double standards to me.

    Actually, I'm kinda like that too. Not a good habit. It might be a little about control.
    Yes, my thoughts exactly. I had this problem with an entp ex. He invaded my space with his messiness. While I am most of the time relaxed about clutter. In his case I just couldn't cope.

    I wouldn't take the complaining as an indication something is wrong in the relationship - some people are just like that. If it's really bothering you though, you should talk to him about it and figure out a compromise. Maybe you'll try to clean more often if he nags you less. Since he's often complaining about it and he's isfp, that's usually an indication that it's really really bothering him. Otherwise they will tend to avoid conflict more often than not. Sometimes with isfps it takes a lot of your attention to figure out what makes them happy/unhappy, and you can make them happy by paying close attention to their reactions and thinking of that in the future.
    Yes, but I find his demands often unreasonable. And this is why we are arguing regularly. I have to work quite hard in the day and he does not recognize that there is a limit to how much time I can spend to fullfill all his standards.

    Your definition of reasonably clean is probably going to need some compromise. We can't really be objective here; for all we know you're a hoarder and he's totally reasonable, or you're perfectly tidy and he's being a control freak. Probably it's in the middle, or even elements of both. Your compromise is probably going to include a more objective way of splitting up housecleaning because right now it sounds like you both feel like it's not evenly balanced - like most people, probably!!
    I can't add anything there. Clearly it is a common battle ground and our expectations probably depend more on upbringing than personality type.

    A really important thing that you might be missing: SPs usually do not care about good intentions.
    I did notice this one.
    Thoughts die the moment they are embodied by words. (Arthur Schopenhauer)

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    SFJs can be relaxed and playful, and they can also not relate to other SJs. This does not make him an SFP. The ISFJ I know can be playful and relaxed, and doesn't relate to a lot of more socially conservative SJs. My ESFJ could be very playful, and actually, if you go by function theory, people with Fe as their dom/aux function can use their awareness of what is socially "correct" to buck against it - this is not unheard of.

    You're honestly making him sound even more like an SJ by saying he became a teacher like his father because he thought there were no other options when he graduated.

    You're also talking about him feeling compelled to support others, especially women, feeling guilty about putting his own needs first, and how he cannot stand up for himself. ISFJs are also known for being nice and compromising, until they have these little outbursts, and those outbursts are often comicly stereotyped as being about things like tile grout, spots on the sink, or unproperly rinsed dishes. This guy is a walking ISFJ stereotype.

    I'll take my leave now, though, since you're so convinced he's ISFP.
    Yes I have noticed the contradiction in his character. Still as I pointed in my last post to Randomnity, he can be very relaxed about his own mess. So it is more a question of invading personal space. About the SP I am otherwise very confident.
    Thoughts die the moment they are embodied by words. (Arthur Schopenhauer)

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    hmm... being an introvert... he'll lean towards low energy. and having a full time job will use up a lot of the energy that he has. so i can understand how when he does have free time, he's a little less willing to use it towards other activities that might boost his mood.

    in my past relationship, i was involved with an INFP. and though ISFP's lack Si... our Se is what upholds our desire to keep things clean-it's aesthetics. Intuitives are some of the absolute messiest people ever! haha. my INFP ex would drive me absolutely crazy. he was an artist, and always had his art tools everywhere. he eventually went into carving, and would carve inside! i'd find wood chunks and bits everywhere, daily! even in the bed!! ugh! eventually, we decided the house we lived in was too small, considering both of our desires for alone time (since we were both introverts) and our various hobbies. we moved into a house where we could share a bedroom, and then he'd have his own personal art studio that he could dirty up as he pleased, and i had my own study, where i could go to read, draw, listen to music or just sit in silence as i pleased in an environment i created and enjoyed. this turned out great for us, as i was no longer flustered about him messing up the house, and we each had a space of our own. a space where he could unwind all alone might be a key to him lightening up? as ISFP's we do have a great concern for the aesthetics of our homes, but perhaps a conversation with him involving the fact that you can't read his mind or know exactly every little detail of the way he likes things might be key as well. he may very well just have to adjust to the fact that he does live with other people, and the house will reflect that it is lived in.

    another thing that might help him, is getting him to read more about his personality type. it could help him tap into aspects of himself that he may have shut off due to the way he was raised or societal standards.
    I have offered him in the past that we should move into a house with two separate flats, so he could actually organise his place the way he wants it. The offer actually upset him a lot because he interpreted it as me not loving him enough. Or put it this way. He thinks if I don't adapt, I don't love him any more.
    So I am now working hard to make him more relaxed about living with other people in the same flat.
    Last edited by maerzhase; 10-30-2010 at 10:11 AM.
    Thoughts die the moment they are embodied by words. (Arthur Schopenhauer)

  10. #20
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    SJ's can be messy, too, by the way. and SP's are capable of being control freaks. not everything about type is set in stone. a lot has to do with upbringing, maturity/growing, learning from our own mistakes, etc.

    i will agree, it does seem unlike an ISFP to become a teacher in his father's footsteps simply because he felt he had no other choice... but really just break it down into Si and Se. toss cleanliness factors aside. how is he with keeping up with bills, or money management in general? or time management? can he be a bit impulsive? childish? does he experience the world through his five senses or through an innate sense of what needs to be done?

    moving on. i say, communication, communication, communication. and that's not always easy for ISFP's. i had an INFP exboyfriend, however, that broke that wall with me. if you can lay down an atmosphere that he can feel comfortable in, he'll be able to open up his problems more and more. a concerned, but non aggressive tone and honesty of your own feelings should help.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

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