[MBTI General] INTP/ISFP

[ReflecTcelfeR]

This thread gives me hope. I appreciate its creation.

 

[Amethyst]

I'm not an INTP, but I sure love ISFPs!!

 

[JoSunshine]

i think we feel insecure around thinker types more so than with feeler types. other feeler types would probably see a more serious side of us more often than thinker types. if you'd like to see us more serious and/or intellectual, you have to set the comfortable atmosphere around us first so that we feel less insecure about what we have to say.

My ISFP (yes update he's an ISFP, not an INFP as I thought) is both serious and intellectual as much as he is silly and goofy. We have amazing, profound conversations...and then we tickle each other and giggle our asses off.

 

[wolfy]

i think we feel insecure around thinker types more so than with feeler types. other feeler types would probably see a more serious side of us more often than thinker types. if you'd like to see us more serious and/or intellectual, you have to set the comfortable atmosphere around us first so that we feel less insecure about what we have to say.

Yeah, I think a lot of the times more serious intellectual types come across like they have a stick up their ass, not necessarily intp but the serious intellectual type . It doesn't make for a fun conversational platform.

 

[INTPness]

My experience was similar to spamtar's. SF's are just so hard for me to understand sometimes; NT's just think so very differently than they do. We are very logical, SF's are not logical at all. I remember a few instances that really, really made me angry with her and that I did not understand at all where she was coming from, but she was sticking to her guns and going to challenge me on it - even though, to me, it made no sense whatsoever. I was thinking, "If you're going to challenge me this hard on something, at least be able to present a somewhat logical explanation as to why you feel so stongly about it. And she couldn't. But, she'd still be very angry. One time when she got a puppy, I really liked the puppy. I'd play with him, spend time with him, make sure he had new toys (buy him stuff, etc.) and she became very resentful towards me. OK, I get it, you want me to spend the time with you and show the affection to you. Well, one day we go to the park and this other lady had a dog. I walked the dog over to this lady and started asking questions about the breed of her dog, where she got the dog, etc. After I said goodbye to the lady, my ISFP was giving me a very hard time as to why I even approached this lady that I don't even know (the lady was like 20 years older than me, had nothing to do with the lady looking good). ISFP's don't get very rude - they stay polite, but they still have a way of saying it that you know they're not happy. She was red in the face and saying stuff like, "I thought you were a so-called introvert. Introverts don't approach people and start asking all kinds of questions about their dog. That's not very introvert-like." I said, "I was curious about the dog. I had questions. I was just saying hello and letting the dogs mingle. Uhh, and introverts can do whatever they want. They don't have duct tape over their mouths. They're allowed to talk." She said, "Would you like it if I just talked to random strangers and shared all my personal business with them?" I said, "I didn't share anything personal at all. That lady knows nothing about me - and yeah, I'd have no problem whatsoever if you approached a person with a dog. You should do it more often!" She was just livid. It was so completely out of left field it just baffled me.

And when you get into these spats (INTP/ISFP), it just goes completely haywire to the point to where you don't even understand the ISFP's argument because there is seemingly no logic to it whatsoever. And if there is logic to it, they don't voice it - or don't know how to voice it. So you're just left feeling like a complete jerk because you've angered them/hurt them, but they can't give you any real reasoning as to what you did wrong. I used to tell her, "Arguing with you is like arguing with a cat. It just doesn't work." It seriously feels like the 2 people are speaking completely different languages and the further the argument goes, the crazier it becomes and the further apart the 2 become in their arguments. I appreciated so much about her, I just couldn't imagine myself not being able to sit down (when necessary) and hash things/come to a mutual decision together in a reasonable way that makes some amount of sense.

 

[INTPness]

Yeah, I think a lot of the times more serious intellectual types come across like they have a stick up their ass, not necessarily intp but the serious intellectual type . It doesn't make for a fun conversational platform.

That's just it, from the INTP perspective. Everything for my ISFP had to be fun. Everything was a joke. I'm an NP, so I love to get silly and act a fool. But, sometimes in life (especially romantic partners) there has to be serious discussion about serious topics when serious decisions have to be made. That doesn't mean it needs to be super formal and "stick in the mud". We can sit on the porch in our underwear and talk for all I care, as long as we're able to talk through the issue and reach a good conclusion that works for both of us. I might say something like, "OK, so what are you going to do about "x" situation? It's long overdue and it needs our attention. How should we go about resolving it or taking care of it so that it doesn't grow into a bigger problem for us?" She might say, "Hopefully it doesn't grow as big as your upper lip!" And start laughing hysterically. OK, funny joke. I get it. Hahahaha. But, what about my question?

That was so frustrating.

 

[wolfy]

Yeah, that does sound frustrating. I didn't mean that light all the time. Sometimes I am in the mood for that kind of conversation and sometimes I am not. I think it is better to just ask the question and let it sit with me. I will come back with an answer. But that might just be my style, I don't know.

 

[JoSunshine]

Hummm...like my earlier post said I don't have the "can't be serious" issue with m ISFP SO. I also have a good ISFP friend and she and I also have very deep, serious conversations (pretty much every time we talk for any length of time). She is also very helpful in helping me make decisions (yes a P helping a J make decisions) and vice-versa. That being said, she told me that one of the things she values most about our friendship is that she CAN have conversations like that with me and that I respect her opinion. According to her it is difficult for her to do...she is very sensitive to criticism and feeling "dumb" or like her opinions are not respected. Going back to IndyAnnaJoan's post, I think it is very important for an ISFP to feel secure in order to share their opinions and views. I would think (based on my relationships with NT's...well T's in general) that sometimes the T pure logic could be perceived as criticism or condescending to an ISFP even if that is not the intent, causing the ISFP to withhold their opinions.

Maybe?

 

[KDude]

I've been around thinker types my whole life (both Ti and Te). My immediate family are all that way, quite a few friends.. hell even a lot places I've dropped by on the internet. I don't think twice about airing my opinions or whatnot or trying to converse with even hardcore INTP or INTJ-like programmers. I understand them to a point and know that I have been engaging to them with my own thoughts as well. I don't present or write the same way, but I have enough "serious opinions" to work with to be respected enough to communicate at least. I've got nothing to lose and nobody is a threat to me. I could be a T myself, but I've always been on the more sensitive side compared to my family.. both my brother and mother are very stoic types, my dad militaristic and structured. If I am a T, I don't come off as a stereotypical one. What I don't understand is why Fi would make such a drastic difference in assertiveness. Almost every MBTI type gets described with some of level of assertiveness, except ISFPs. It kind of bums me out. Even INFPs have their idealism to fuel them. While ISFPs are supposedly twiddling their thumbs, afraid and never serious about anything. :\

 

[JoSunshine]

I've been around thinker types my whole life (both Ti and Te). My immediate family are all that way, quite a few friends.. hell even a lot places I've dropped by on the internet. I don't think twice about airing my opinions or whatnot or trying to converse with even hardcore INTP or INTJ-like programmers. I understand them to a point and know that I have been engaging to them with my own thoughts as well. I don't present or write the same way, but I have enough "serious opinions" to work with to be respected enough to communicate at least. I've got nothing to lose and nobody is a threat to me. I could be a T myself, but I've always been on the more sensitive side compared to my family.. both my brother and mother are very stoic types, my dad militaristic and structured. If I am a T, I don't come off as a stereotypical one. What I don't understand is why Fi would make such a drastic difference in assertiveness. Almost every MBTI type gets described with some of level of assertiveness, except ISFPs. It kind of bums me out. Even INFPs have their idealism to fuel them. While ISFPs are supposedly twiddling their thumbs, afraid and never serious about anything. :\

Well if you are an F, you certainly seem to have a well developed thinking side. It's funny though, I do think that my SO and friend do sometimes have difficulty expressing their opinions, but I don't view them as doormats or anything. I view them as non-combative and sensitive, but they have they're thresholds and if you push either to their limit they will either erupt or simply walk away never to be seen again. They are both very independent as well and can become stubborn as goats when they feel overly controlled. Just my personal observations...

 

[INTPness]

I've been around thinker types my whole life (both Ti and Te). My immediate family are all that way, quite a few friends.. hell even a lot places I've dropped by on the internet. I don't think twice about airing my opinions or whatnot or trying to converse with even hardcore INTP or INTJ-like programmers. I understand them to a point and know that I have been engaging to them with my own thoughts as well. I don't present or write the same way, but I have enough "serious opinions" to be respected enough to communicate at least. That would be umm.. kind of tragic if ISFPs had to be afraid of speaking around T types. Nobody is out to get anyone, for the most part. I could be a T myself, but I've always been on the more sensitive side compared to my family.. both my brother and mother are very stoic types, my dad militaristic and structured. If I am a T, I don't come off as a stereotypical one. I'm trying to hold on to saying I'm ISFP, even though it's hard to fit with what's supposedly expected of me.

I don't see you guys as useless, thumb-twiddling morons. Not at all. Everyone has their own unique strengths and some of the ones you guys have are ones that NT's lack. But, it goes back to the whole idea that:

SJ's are looking for a "help mate"
SP's are looking for a "play mate"
NF's are looking for a "soul mate"
NT's are looking for a "mind mate"

Someone who I can have a deep, thought-provoking conversation with (sometimes serious, other times light and funny but still witty) is such a fun and interesting thing to me. I asked my ISFP one time what would be her number one trait she would want in a partner and, true to form, she said, "Someone who makes me laugh a lot. Like all the time." It's just a matter of "different strokes for different folks". She always wanted to watch a movie that would make her laugh. I always wanted to watch a movie that would make me think.

As for F making a difference in assertiveness, doesn't F generally try to not offend people? It wants things to go smoothly between people. It doesn't want to step on people's toes. It would rather be diplomatic than abrupt. Whereas, T wants to speak the truth, whether it hurts people's feelings or not. If they can't handle the truth, then that's their problem, basically. These are very general statements and I'm sure someone will say, "Nuh uh, I'm an F and I don't care one bit about people's feelings." But, in a very general sense, I think this holds true.

 

[KDude]

Well if you are an F, you certainly seem to have a well developed thinking side. It's funny though, I do think that my SO and friend do sometimes have difficulty expressing their opinions, but I don't view them as doormats or anything. I view them as non-combative and sensitive, but they have they're thresholds and if you push either to their limit they will either erupt or simply walk away never to be seen again. They are both very independent as well and can become stubborn as goats when they feel overly controlled. Just my personal observations...

I'm non-combative as well (although I can be combative in a reactionary sense at times). I'm not so assertive as to have any of the characteristic baiting nature of some Ti types (even if they're just having fun). I question myself if anything. Some immature ones unknowingly invade people's space with that kind of behavior, and I've always thought it was uncool. Not something I can see myself doing. But it's not beyond me to discuss things and debate a little, especially when people ask. I'm not an extrovert, but umm.. somewhere along the way I learned if I keep too silent, then I just lose opportunities and chances for making friends.

 

[KDude]

As for F making a difference in assertiveness, doesn't F generally try to not offend people? It wants things to go smoothly between people. It doesn't want to step on people's toes. It would rather be diplomatic than abrupt. Whereas, T wants to speak the truth, whether it hurts people's feelings or not. If they can't handle the truth, then that's their problem, basically. These are very general statements and I'm sure someone will say, "Nuh uh, I'm an F and I don't care one bit about people's feelings." But, in a very general sense, I think this holds true.

Yeah, I would agree with that. Many F's aren't trying to offend anyone, for the most part.

I think assertiveness is another issue (which may not have anything to do with offending people). Everyone should have a little room to grow there in themselves. I don't think it's realistic that an entire type would have shy behavior. If I were to use the cognitive test questions, Se and Fi technically would keep an ISFP assertive enough. Where N types motivate themselves through random/interconnected possibilities, SPs are opportunistic in a more direct manner.

Se:
Freely follow your gut instincts and exciting physical impulses as they come up.
Enjoy the thrill of action and physical experience in the present moment.
Quickly move to take advantage of immediate options for action.
Instantly read visible cues to see just how far you can go.
Spur action and pull off results simply by making your presence felt.


Fi:
Feel strongly that something is good or bad.
Remain in touch with what you want for yourself, what motivates you, and what is good.
Freely enjoy doing what you want for your own personal happiness.
Always remain true to what you want for yourself or others.
Evaluate what is worth believing in and most important to who you really are inside.


If someone scored even moderately on any of these, I don't see how they could be too docile or not stand for something, if necessary.

 

[INTPness]

Yeah, I would agree with that. Many F's aren't trying to offend anyone, for the most part.

I think assertiveness is another issue (which may not have anything to do with offending people). Everyone should have a little room to grow there in themselves. I don't think it's realistic that an entire type would have shy behavior. If I were to use the cognitive test questions, Se and Fi technically would keep an ISFP assertive enough. Where N types motivate themselves through random/interconnected possibilities, SPs are opportunistic in a more direct manner.

Se:
Freely follow your gut instincts and exciting physical impulses as they come up.
Enjoy the thrill of action and physical experience in the present moment.
Quickly move to take advantage of immediate options for action.
Instantly read visible cues to see just how far you can go.
Spur action and pull off results simply by making your presence felt.


Fi:
Feel strongly that something is good or bad.
Remain in touch with what you want for yourself, what motivates you, and what is good.
Freely enjoy doing what you want for your own personal happiness.
Always remain true to what you want for yourself or others.
Evaluate what is worth believing in and most important to who you really are inside.


If someone scored even moderately on any of these, I don't see how they could be too docile or not stand for something, if necessary.

OK, good points. You guys can definitely "stand for something" and sure, you can even assert yourselves. I personally wish you guys (ISFP's) would assert yourselves more. But, here's the point: When I compare an ISFP co-worker to an ESTJ co-worker, the ESTJ could definitely be defined as "assertive". He "asserts" himself, he demands things, he knows what he wants from a situation and he makes sure that he gets it. The ISFP just listens to what is being said, may show some frustration if he doesn't agree, but then doesn't say much and goes with the plan of everyone else. I'm not saying one is right and the other is wrong, but you see how one can be seen as assertive and the other one not nearly as much. It's all relative. ISFP's can be assertive, but when compared to other types, they're not nearly as assertive.

 

[KDude]

Hmm, it's another reason to just toss the ISFP type. I can't think of a situation where I wasn't assertive. Maybe in dating. And even then, I make some effort.

As far as my attitude vs ESTJS goes.. not sure how to put it. Umm..I'll go for a somewhat innocent childhood story. I have one ESTJ friend I've known forever. When he first moved in my hood, we were just kids. He had this annoying need to be leader all of the time though. Like, if we were riding bikes in a group, he would have to be in front. Among other things. All of the little subtle assertive/take charge tendencies that play out as adults were already happening back then. After awhile, I got tired of it, and shoved him off his bike. Then he got upset and we got into a fight. Except it wasn't a fight. I punched him a few times and he was down again. Then I kind of lectured him about his pointless need to be a leader and I left. I didn't have any personal beef so much as just thought everyone was equal. He understood and the next day, bought me tacos. Yay.

Now as older guys, we're good friends, and I admire his assertiveness. But he has a productive type of assertiveness. And he's more detail oriented and a far better planner than I am. I'm happy deferring to him in a lot of cases. Like, if everyone was going to the beach, he's the best person to be on top of a lot of things, tell people where to meet, is never unprepared, etc.. I've just always fought with people who are rude and demeaning in their need to lead. So just to be clear, I don't have a problem with some of it.

Anyways, I'll cut it short, but I'm assertive probably more than I should be. I'm trying my best to not sound like I'm aggressive or anything. I've got more stories than I care to admit though. Maybe I've always been more of an ISTP - and on that note, I feel bad for speaking for ISFPs.

 

[Grungemouse]

Pointless addition:

There are times where my ISFP is more logical and I'm the one thinking through value judgements. I told her about how I walked past a homeless guy and his dog, and my Fe went into overdrive over the dog's situation and how I felt compelled to just take it home with me. She told me that sometimes homeless dogs have a better quality of life than dogs with a home (more excercise/attention, whereas dogs with families are left at home all day with none), how I shouldn't take it home because my landlord wouldn't allow me to keep it, and it would be unfair to dump a dog in need of medical attention on my parents. To which I replied, "...Screw logic, I want the dog." She knew I was joking. But I love her rational, down-to-earth nature.

Her only vice is her fear of displeasing me, which I fear will be exploited by potential jerky future partners. I know it's not my problem to worry about, but I would hate to find out in later life that she is in an abusive relationship. She's too selfless. If she senses any sign of annoyance, she's very quick to apologise.

 

[INTPness]

Her only vice is her fear of displeasing me, which I fear will be exploited by potential jerky future partners.

You already know that her future won't be with you?

She's too selfless. If she senses any sign of annoyance, she's very quick to apologise.

Yes. It's funny that you mention this because, just today, my ISFP texted me and said that she was sorry for being so fearful that I would leave if she wasn't perfect during our relationship. And it's been over a year since we ended it. I appreciated what she said and it was probably hard for her to say it, but yeah, they are sometimes very selfless as you mention.

It can go the other way too though, if they sense you are annoyed and that you're going to try to challenge them, they will sometimes rebel even more just to show you that they don't have to do things your way and that they will do it their way if they want to (which is actually what a lot of INTP's do)- I admired her independent streak, but the rebellion sometimes made me just want to end it on the spot.

 

[betterthandead]

more of a case of mistaken duality

entp is far more rewarding to isfp
esfp is far more rewarding to intp

i know all the above types and that one letter difference is huge.

 

[KDude]

Then again, some INTPs may be actually be ENTPs and some ISFPs, ESFPs. Maybe there's a reason why some are hooking up.

 

[betterthandead]

On the outside they look like good partners and find each other interesting based on opposite idealogies, but on the inside and both types may use the "we have stuff in common, therefore we must be compatible" fallacy when it is the differences that strive for progression and growth of relationships. Both ISFP and INTP use mirroring tactics to strategize/manipulate others into getting along with them. They will both see this and distrust each other eventually.

They mistake each other for their duality partners. ESFP-INTP, ISFP-ENTP. That extrovert vs introvert is a big difference.

The INTPs could also be in fact an ENTP. If an ENTP grew up in a two parent IxxJ household they will subdue their extroversion at times and be less outspoken/wild than other ENTPs. Or if an ENTP is down in the dumps they will even behave more INTP. The only way to determine that is if you put that individual in front of a crowd. The ENTP will bravely gather people around and lead them while the INTP will look more paranoid, fearful if they are in this position.

I am not an ENFP, they are manipulative.