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  1. #71
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Yay Geoff!
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  2. #72
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    The big problem is that the type descriptions are written by intuitives. So they are hugely negative towards sensors. Some of the sensor type descriptions are downright insulting,and poor reflections of the rich multi faceted nature of many sensors that I meet and have the pleasure of working with and spending my free time with.

    They don't suffer with tunnel vision, they don't have an inability to use their imagination. They just have a slightly different function order.

    Stupid people of all types are dull and unimaginative. Clever people of all types are interesting and imaginative.

    Part of the problem here is that intuitives will look at someone they don't like and attach a "sensor" badge to it, and this continues to colour their conception of other sensors. Despite the fact that many they don't like could be intuitives. It's self perpetuating. Don't like someone you know who hasn't been tested? Why, they MUST be my type opposite.

    -Geoff

    Agreed also. I wouldn't attribute the problems I have with others to most people being sensors. People need to improve their communication skills and stop passing the buck.

    What I find to be the problem is that a lot of intuitive snobs expect people to entertain them, prove their worth and intelligence and then maybe they'll lower themselves to talk. Who wants to be bothered with people like that?

  3. #73
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Not really.. we still use Sensing and Feeling as NTs... we always use all functions.. its just that they would be weaker (for an INTP) than the backside of the T and the N...(Just because Ni and Te are ahead of all sensing and feeling functions it does not mean that those functions are not there at all)
    C'mon Blue. That's not what you originally said. Let's go back to the beginning. I said
    .....depending of whose succession of functions you prescribe to, ISJs have a better use of Ni than NTPs.
    Your response was
    It's not true that ISJs have a better use of Ni than NTPs
    Surely you did not think that anyone remotely knowledgeable of MBTI principles would buy into your theory? You don't say that the functions are at a lower level, your order (Ti-Ne-Te-Ni-Si-Se-Fe-Fi) places the complete sensing and feeling dichotomies at a lower level. There has to be a balance in any human to exist. Ergo, at least one function from each dichotomy must be utilized, before both functions from one dichotomy can be used. I am not saying what you imply can't happen. It's just that anyone hardwired that way would need a hug-me-jacket.

  4. #74
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    However MBTI doesn't express strengths in gradients, you are either one or the other and your function order is set absolutely from that. So in terms of ordering, you either believe in MBTI (ie: It's not even Jung that defined it this way!) or you don't believe in funtional ordering... the step from there would be to work with Jungs big three and those theories.
    It has to be that way, otherwise what would be the use of a four letter codes? Any type could use any of the eight functions as dominant, auxilary and so on....

  5. #75
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    It has to be that way, otherwise what would be the use of a four letter codes? Any type could use any of the eight functions as dominant, auxilary and so on....
    Well, what's the difference between saying I am;

    INTP - Ti - Ne - Si - Fe

    and me saying I am

    I (100%), N (90%), T (90%), P(100%)?

    In the first case, functions define who I am, and are inflexible... they don't transfer the gradients from the 2nd into the functional breakdown, meaning that someone who is barely T but extremely N will still be said to have a dominant Ti, when in reality they barely use Ti.

    In truth, TiNe should be considered one set of functions, which removes some of the argument against gradients... but the 4 letters can be useful as they are, without the functional breakdown. Most theories use no functional breakdown in the first place... For example, I measure O+ C- E- A= N= in the FFM model. It would mean the same as saying INTP (I+ N+ T+ P+, where you would measure (I+ N- T+ P+)!

  6. #76
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I don't know anything about these random people's function order theories, but logically, would it not be different depending on the relative strengths of the four functions? (Beyond the Ti-Ne-Si-Fe basic order, that is)
    No, because that is actually how the system works. There are degrees of preferring any dichotomy. The system is limited, in that mostly likely one can actually result in XXXX, if you answer the assessment 50/50. It's impossible to provide forced choices, because human beings are more complexed than either or questions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    For example, an INTP who has a weaker T (ie leaning towards INFP) would have Fi higher in the function order than one with a very strong T. An INTP with a weak P would have Te (and probably Ni) higher in the order than an INTP with a strong P. And so on. So I don't think there can really be one function order for all INTPs. Does this not make sense?
    I understand your inquiry, however as Pgats points out, the principles are in place, and INTPs use Ti-Ne-Si-Fe. However, they do use all eight functions,and depending on how you believe those functons go in order per type, the other four can either follow the aforementioned, or be placed intermittenly between them.

    As for your example, you compare a function (Fi) with a dichotomy (T), which is apple orange. To answer your queston, weakening of preference for one dichotomy simply means you will slide over to the alternate dichotomy. Thus, the less you prefer T, more you prefer F. Nevertheless, functions are not part of the assessment equation. It is why Socionics can continue to make their case as to the order of functions for introverts.

  7. #77
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    C'mon Blue. That's not what you originally said. Let's go back to the beginning. I saidYour response wasSurely you did not think that anyone remotely knowledgeable of MBTI principles would buy into your theory? You don't say that the functions are at a lower level, your order (Ti-Ne-Te-Ni-Si-Se-Fe-Fi) places the complete sensing and feeling dichotomies at a lower level. There has to be a balance in any human to exist. Ergo, at least one function from each dichotomy must be utilized, before both functions from one dichotomy can be used. I am not saying what you imply can't happen. It's just that anyone hardwired that way would need a hug-me-jacket.

    ISTJs tend to have Ni as the 7th most developed function... they still use it.. yet not as proficiently as INTPs who have it as their 4th..

    Once again... to clarify... functions 6-8 are used when necessary...probably used well enough for you to get around... but you will not operate them as well those that are higher in rank... when you develop them... you're not just merely getting acquainted with them... your unconscious mind strives to master them at that point..

    We always use all of our functions... just some better than others..
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  8. #78
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Well, what's the difference between saying I am;

    INTP - Ti - Ne - Si - Fe

    and me saying I am

    I (100%), N (90%), T (90%), P(100%)?
    But what you can't say is that you prefer I-N-T-P and and use Fe-Si-Ne-Ti in the order of your functions.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    ISTJs tend to have Ni as the 7th most developed function... they still use it.. yet not as proficiently as INTPs who have it as their 4th....
    Okay, we base this on Beebe's theory. As I initially quoted, depending on which theory you prescribe to. In this case, SPs still have Ni higher than NPs.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    In truth, TiNe should be considered one set of functions, which removes some of the argument against gradients... but the 4 letters can be useful as they are, without the functional breakdown. Most theories use no functional breakdown in the first place... For example, I measure O+ C- E- A= N= in the FFM model. It would mean the same as saying INTP (I+ N+ T+ P+, where you would measure (I+ N- T+ P+)!
    You're attempting to muddle the discussion in applying a system outside of MBTI. And no Ti-Ne could never be one function, since one can be Ti-Se or Fi-Ne, which describes totally different personalities. Othewise, you are now referring to Keirsey's temperament.

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