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  1. #91
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    ESTP is the most mismatched type between systems. ESTPs are actually more likely to score ENFp or ENFj, than actually score ESTp.
    Yeah, there are all kind of mismatches for ESTp (ESFp, ESTjs, ENTjs, INTjs as well). The simple correlation is (direct) power. Socionics associates Se with that (although it's expressed differently than that with other types, like a real ESFp or ISFj).

    Types that value Se are much more comfortable with direct behavior aimed at making an immediate impact. This may at times be perceived as abrasive, particularly by types who do not value Se . There is usually a competitive edge to this style of group interaction, resulting in a more intense atmosphere than that of introverted sensing ()-valuing quadras. They appreciate contemplating possibilities only if they feel like they stand to gain something from it, or it has a perceived potential impact on "the real world".

    Unlike Si , which is about one's subjective sensory experience (how intense or enjoyable it is), Se is about achieving an object of desire. It gives one the ability to influence, bend, and push situations and people in order to achieve such an object, rather than to enjoy the situation one is in.

  2. #92
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Indeed. Socionics Se and Si are distinctly un-concrete, unlike their MBTI counterparts.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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  3. #93
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbows View Post
    I've known a couple super unhealthy esfps.

    I believe that biases my viewpoint. I haven't met a healthy ESFP to my knowledge YET.
    I have certainly known quite a few - or, some ESFPs and others in their "group" who just behave like ESFPs to fit in - who are "OMG PARTY PARTY PARTY DRINK DRINK DRINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" pretty much all the time. Which is particularly annoying when you're not even 17 any more, but when you're over 30 and these people are mostly between 25 and 35.

    I think at that age it might be a tad "unhealthy" if it's non-stop and if having a non-superficial conversation with them is literally and utterly impossible.

    There have been very few on this website but like the ESTPs they seem pretty cool, chilled and down to earth. I'm always aware though that the picture you get of people online is incomplete (and that certainly applies to any type!!)
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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    In socionics Te is more related to Se and living in the moment. Te in MBTI is more related to Si and past concrete detail.
    .
    Exactly, So I mean which one is really wrong? The thing is I really do understand what socionics means by their Te and Si definiton it makes sense. If you look at the way an ISTP operates is very "counter reactive" this to me sounds like "Si" (take in information and then act) MBTI has no mention to this it only says Ti and Se, which still makes sense but looking at it from another prespective. I really like your idea of using the knowledge towards your benifit and not really seing either one (MBTI or socionics) as right or wrong, that is very much how I look at it as well. I think most intuitives on this site take the theory too seriously, and thus get into their own self-indulgent blind little world.

  5. #95
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    i kinda think i may be istp in socionics, but not sure. i don't have strong "Fe" even in the socionics sense (maybe "passively" i do.. :confused.

    anyhow, the Si thing seems more like me. i can see that in how most of the istps talk around here too.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    Exactly, So I mean which one is really wrong? The thing is I really do understand what socionics means by their Te and Si definiton it makes sense. If you look at the way an ISTP operates is very "counter reactive" this to me sounds like "Si" (take in information and then act) MBTI has no mention to this it only says Ti and Se, which still makes sense but looking at it from another prespective. I really like your idea of using the knowledge towards your benifit and not really seing either one (MBTI or socionics) as right or wrong, that is very much how I look at it as well. I think most intuitives on this site take the theory too seriously, and thus get into their own self-indulgent blind little world.
    I agree with your definition of "take in information and then act" This is very chart the course style to me. My son is extremely "chart the course". He is very idea driven based on concrete things. It drives me nuts at times because he is a planner and I am not. I dont want to commit to things and he will keep thinking of things to do wanting to chart a course of action.

    But I can see how that fits in with Se Ti but its all about semantics and wording. Experiencing vs chart the course. After 13 years I suprise my wife because she doesnt understand the conflict with my introversion. How I operate as an introvert and an experiencer when it comes to "social" things. The conflict arises in that I am not one who likes to sit around and talk...I want to be doing something AND we can talk. But just focusing on talking to others I cannot handle...I need distraction...I need the focus to not be on "socializing".

    The thing I notice with Ns is that they are so abstract that what they say can be taken several different ways. I dont think that you are N in any way, but lets take "take in information and then act". That can apply to experiencer, chart the course, etc. Each person can take it their own way. It is abstract. To make it concrete you need to apply it to a situation using detail, then we can figure out if your "take in information and then act" matches my "take in information and then act". Its way off topic, but my wife and another woman were talking about dishes not getting cleaned. They were both in agreeance...knocking 2 people...until it came out that one person was talking about dishes sitting in the sink for a couple days and the other was dishes sitting around the house. But the "complaining" went on for a while in aggreance until things became "concrete" then one person was like well I can handle them being in the sink.
    Im out, its been fun

  7. #97
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I might be missing the train of thought, but Si in socionics has nothing to do with charting the course. The distinctions aren't made on that level.

    Types that value Si prefer to spend their time doing enjoyable activities rather than straining themselves to achieve goals. They like to believe that if activities are done with enjoyment, people will give them more effort and time, and also becoming more skilled at what they are doing in the long run. They believe that goals should suit people's intrinsic needs rather than shaped by the demands and constraints of the external world, and so do not try to force others into doing things they don't want to do. They also try to be easygoing and pleasant, preferring peaceful coexistence to conflict, except when their personal well-being or comfort is directly at stake.

    In contrast to extroverted sensing, Si is related to following one's own needs instead of focusing on some externally-driven conception of what is necessary to acquire or achieve. So, whereas Se ego types feel capable to evaluate how justified others' preferences are, Si ego types will try to adjust to them in any way possible (given that it does not extremely affect their own comfort), wishing to minimize conflict.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I might be missing the train of thought, but Si in socionics has nothing to do with charting the course. The distinctions aren't made on that level.

    Types that value Si prefer to spend their time doing enjoyable activities rather than straining themselves to achieve goals. They like to believe that if activities are done with enjoyment, people will give them more effort and time, and also becoming more skilled at what they are doing in the long run. They believe that goals should suit people's intrinsic needs rather than shaped by the demands and constraints of the external world, and so do not try to force others into doing things they don't want to do. They also try to be easygoing and pleasant, preferring peaceful coexistence to conflict, except when their personal well-being or comfort is directly at stake.

    In contrast to extroverted sensing, Si is related to following one's own needs instead of focusing on some externally-driven conception of what is necessary to acquire or achieve. So, whereas Se ego types feel capable to evaluate how justified others' preferences are, Si ego types will try to adjust to them in any way possible (given that it does not extremely affect their own comfort), wishing to minimize conflict.
    Yes...chart the course is MBTI wording and the words that jixmix chose to categorize heavily crossed between chart the course and experiencer. If that is his understanding then I can easily see how it can create a split between socionics ISTP and MBTI ISTP/ISTJ. His understanding can go either way in its abstract form.

    What you defined above as Si matches better with experiencer as opposed to chart the course. To give concrete detail as an example...I started P90X and as I continue I back down from the "schedule" and cater it to myself. Not my goals...but to keep me from giving up out of boredom and repetition. I picked the ones I like...currently exercise hard 3 days a week...decided I wanted to do a week or 2 of heavy lifting right now then gonna jump back into the P90X routine afterwards.
    Im out, its been fun

  9. #99
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    I don't know of any ESTP's... but I've got two ISTP roommates. One of 'em is one of my favorite people in the woooorld. He's super handy around the house. He's smart and quick witted. He's got a great sense of humor and knows how to make me laugh. He's silly. And since we're both SP's, we can set off on some fun adventures and not over tire the other with too much chit chattin' chattery, since we're both introverted types that can be worn out by that. I'd actually like to find me an ISTP boooooyfreeeeen.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    I don't know of any ESTP's... but I've got two ISTP roommates. One of 'em is one of my favorite people in the woooorld. He's super handy around the house. He's smart and quick witted. He's got a great sense of humor and knows how to make me laugh. He's silly. And since we're both SP's, we can set off on some fun adventures and not over tire the other with too much chit chattin' chattery, since we're both introverted types that can be worn out by that. I'd actually like to find me an ISTP boooooyfreeeeen.
    you just did, go get em tiger

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