[ISTP] ISTP freaking out... as much as any ISTP ever freaked out @ anything. Help please.

[Esoteric Wench]

My ISTP boyfriend and I (ENFP) are living together for a three-month trial period while we both decide if we want to get married.

Here's the problem:

This impending decision is causing my ISTP a LOT of stress. He doesn't know what happiness is and he's unsure if he's ever experienced it. Ergo, he's unsure if we should get married. He doesn't want to get married unless he knows he's happy. But since he doesn't know what happiness is, how can he be sure? Thus, he is stuck in this eternal logic loop. It's sort of like the koan of ISTP love.

I think that trying to understand if he's "happy" is absolutely the wrong way for my ISTP to approach this decision. Of course I want him to be happy. But, in other areas of his life he almost never uses terms like "want" or "like." He never says, "I'm happy." While he's certainly made major life decisions before now, he says that he never made them because he felt overwhelming joy. Instead, they were the product of a lot of quiet reflection and careful reasoning. For example, he made the decision to go to grad school over 1000 miles from his home state, because he reasoned that this was the next logical step for his career. (Voila Ti.) And while he doesn't regret his decision, it caused him much stress and discomfort in the beginning. But he did it anyway.

So I suggested to my ISTP, that if he waited until he wanted to declare his love on top of a mountain, he was going to wait a very long time because this isn't the way ISTPs thought about the world. I told him that he shouldn't expect to being jumping for joy about getting married. In fact, he would probably feel a lot of discomfort and that was normal for him. "You never jump for joy about anything," says I. "What makes you think this is going to be any different from the way you approach the rest of your life?"

I think he's afraid that if he doesn't feel all gushy about getting married then either there is something wrong with him, or there's something wrong with the relationship. So I'm hoping for some suggestions on how ISTPs make such big decisions.

[BTW, just to clarify, I'm not trying to convince my ISTP to marry me. I'm just trying to help him and support him while he sorts this out himself.]

My ISTP boyfriend will be reading this, btw. Thanks in advance to anyone, regardless of type, who can shed some light on the inner workings of the ISTP mind.

Thanks!!!!

 

[Bamboo]

Three month trial period?

Explain this concept.

I'd imagine most people need longer than three months, except for my grandfather, who proposed on the second date. To a woman 20 years younger than him. Ha!


Also, how old are y'all and how long have you known each other.

I'm nowhere near getting married, but I'd imagine these questions bear relevancy on the situation.

 

[Randomnity]

Why do you need to decide whether to get married RIGHT AWAY?

Why do you need a fixed time of living together to decide? Talk about high-pressure. I would be constantly stressed in that kind of situation, too!

Why do you want to get married now, or at all? Why does your bf? Maybe these answers aren't the same.

edit: if it's relevant, I've been living with my bf for about a year and a half now, and we have no intentions of getting engaged in the near future. I would never have moved in with him if I'd considered it a step towards marriage, or a "trial period".

 

[StephMC]

Yeah, my best advice is to let him make the decision to move in with you without making him feel he's making a huge, life-changing decision to marry you along with it. It would make me go hysterical if I simply tried moving in with someone only to be wracked with thoughts that moving in implies years of commitment which implies marriage which implies little kids running around which implies...etc.

Oh wait. This has happened Needless to day, after 3 months of me going out of my mind, I moved out and broke up with the guy. On the other hand, I've lived with someone that never made me feel that making the decision to live with him was making a huge life-changing decision, and that's working out just fine. Stress free.

I'm not saying we don't know marriage is a possibility. Just let us live blissfully for a while after one huge decision is done, and then move on to the next once we get comfortable with the first.

 

[seamaid]

Does he maybe need more time / experience? Are the 3 months almost up? The stress seems to come from the growing pressure to decide something he doesn't know enough about yet.

I've been living with my ISTP for 4 months, been dating a year total. We are not anywhere near getting engaged (he's just about to turn 27 altho I am 29). I myself would want him to propose if things continue to go well for another year. I mean, that's enough time and experience to really know what it's going to be like day in, day out. With enough cycles of good, great, bad, and boring days he'll know if that particular dynamic is what he wants for the long haul.

I know that if he asks me to marry him, it won't be on one of our boring days, lol. He'll BE overjoyed (if not verbally so, but just all lit up), like when he has some nice surprise planned up his sleeve. The fact that you say he doesn't know if he's ever been happy sounds very odd to me. Happiness doesn't have to be !!!!!! <-- like this all the time. It can be comfort, peace, satisfaction, and contentment. Hasn't he ever just felt good? Is he depressed?

IMO, I think the deadline is sapping all the joy out of something he would probably want to do when he thinks it's right (after careful consideration of every factor).

 

[Lady_X]

yeah...my advice is to take marriage off the table and just live together...don't rush into it and i would think as an enfp you would need them to want it just as much as you...personality types aside...don't justify it based on that and don't settle for less than you need.

 

[Rainne]

Eventually, after awhile...an ISTP will probably say something along the lines of "We should probably get married."

 

[Kingfisher]

yeah...my advice is to take marriage off the table and just live together...don't rush into it and i would think as an enfp you would need them to want it just as much as you...personality types aside...don't justify it based on that and don't settle for less than you need.

that is how i feel too, i think that works well.
it's got to feel right.

my wife and i lived together for 5 years before we got married. we just let things take their own course.

 

[rhinosaur]

I agree with the ISTPs. You say you're not pressuring him into marriage, but to call living together a "trial period?" Yeah, that's pressuring. Just live together, and if marriage eventually comes to the table, address it then.

I've been living with my current GF for approx. 2.5 years. And we've discussed marriage, but living together is hardly a stepping stone or a trial period.

It sounds like you love each other, which is good.

Living together can make or break a relationship.

 

[sLiPpY]

Have you two had any major disagreements to navigate through?

It's mostly those types of scenarios where I discover how I really feel about almost anyone.

 

[XYZ]

YouTube - Seinfeld: Kramer on Marriage

[YOUTUBE="suAhGfVr_4U"]Seinfeld: Kramer on Marriage[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Halla74]

that is how i feel too, i think that works well.
it's got to feel right.

my wife and i lived together for 5 years before we got married. we just let things take their own course.

+1,000 to the wise and good Kingfisher.

Same story for me, Bro.

My wife and I lived together for 5 years before we got married. We've been together for 16 years total at this point. When you're with the right person you know, formalcy does not add to or take away from the relationship, it will happen when the time is right.

 

[Usehername]

Just to put it on record:

All the SPs seem in agreement on this topic and their opinions are all congruent with their worldviews. Important question, though: EW, is this congruent with your worldview?

I would never, ever "just let things take their own course"* because it does not mesh with my worldview of carefully and intentionally choosing the way in which I make commitments of all sorts--interpersonal, career, in terms of team sport commitments or volunteering or what have you. . .

For me, it doesn't mean that I make a long-term commitment without sufficient data--that's unreasonable. But it does mean that I break things down into pieces, and barring any non-negotiable deal breaking kinds of behaviours from others, I stick to my commitments and, at setpoints/crossroads, make decisions to invest more of myself or to part amicably. Intentional living works well for me, and encourages me to carefully invest my resources where I want them to be. I think your 3 month trial period is totally reasonable for someone with my worldview.

My reason for posting is simply to encourage you to establish your priorities, and then live by them. If your ISTP is like these SPs, and you are too, great. Congruency! If, hoewever, you are mismatched, living by a worldview which does not mesh well with your being is only going to make you resentful and cause strife later on.


*all due respect to every SP that has posted--I'm only noting a difference of worldview, rather than judging/placing them within a hierarchy

 

[missfixit]

this is not the only SP attitude. I'm ISTP and I don't do the "open-ended living together" arrangement with men. period.
I do have huge problems with making a decision though, so the pressure and freaking out all sound completely normal to me. I go through that whole "How do i know if this is right? Am i supposed to be this nervous? Shouldn't i feel full of joy or something?" the loop never ends!!


Just don't compromise your needs to meet his lack of commitment. As long as you are ok with this, then i guess just let it ride and see what happens.

 

[Giggly]

I think he's afraid that if he doesn't feel all gushy about getting married then either there is something wrong with him, or there's something wrong with the relationship.

Why shouldn't he want to feel gushy about it? It seems like you feel gushy.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

this is not the only SP attitude. I'm ISTP and I don't do the "open-ended living together" arrangement with men. period.
I do have huge problems with making a decision though, so the pressure and freaking out all sound completely normal to me. I go through that whole "How do i know if this is right? Am i supposed to be this nervous? Shouldn't i feel full of joy or something?" the loop never ends!! Just don't compromise your needs to meet his lack of commitment. As long as you are ok with this, then i guess just let it ride and see what happens.

Missfixit, I found this very helpful. And, I think this is exactly what's going on here.

My ISTP and I have been friends for 20 years. But we only started dating about 1.75 years ago. So I already know all the good, bad, and ugly. I'm no spring chicken (39) and neither is he (41). In other words, I've lived long enough to know who I am and what I want... and also to never again take crap from any man.

He and I are really great together I think. We do love each other very much. And, we get along famously.

But he gets stuck in the logical loop that Missfixit describes so well. It causes him a lot of stress and I don't want this for him. Furthermore, I don't see it as being a very helpful or productive logical exercise. How do you get out of the loop once you are in it?

And once again, my ISTP is reading this thread. Perhaps I will be able to prevail upon him to complete his typologycentral.com email confirmation tonight.

 

[Usehername]

the pressure and freaking out all sound completely normal to me. I go through that whole "How do i know if this is right? Am i supposed to be this nervous? Shouldn't i feel full of joy or something?" the loop never ends!!

I relate too. I actually emailed a famous career expert once with a very carefully thought out web of life career plans and contingency plans . . . she said words that enlightened me greatly:

We would all love to know these things to place ourselves in a strong position. Unfortunately, that's not how the world works. There are no guarantees. It's a challenge for everyone. We are all doing the best with the limitations we face at the moment. That's life.


Before this I guess, emotionally, I presumed that successful people were more clearly predicting and thus controlling their world, so I was trying to do the same. But it turns out we're all living in the dark! It was frightening and relieving at the same time to change this worldview.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

I would never, ever "just let things take their own course" because it does not mesh with my worldview of carefully and intentionally choosing the way in which I make commitments of all sorts... Intentional living works well for me, and encourages me to carefully invest my resources where I want them to be. I think your 3 month trial period is totally reasonable for someone with my worldview.

Thank you Usehername for this post. It absolutely amazes me how differently Ns and Ss think about the world. In particular, NFs have a worldview in common that binds them together. So, I hear you sista!

I know that SPs are live-in-the-moment kind of people. I understand that many people (especially the SPs posting on this thread) see marriage as superfluous to living together. I do not.

I'm not an evangelical Christian. Nor am I even politically or socially conservative. But I have been married once before (two years in my late 20s) and I've live with someone before (4 years in my early 30s). I feel like I've learned a few things:

#1 - Marriage does indeed change you as an individual and a couple. Does the marriage certificate itself change you? No. But it changes the way people see you. It changes the way society treats you in ways large and small. I don't care who you are, everyone derives part of their self-concept based on how they see themselves through the eyes of others. So for me, yeah, getting married does matter.

#2 - Everything I do has to have meaning. This is one of the biggest differences between SPs and NFs/NTs. I cannot even fathom a world in which I don't know exactly why I'm doing what I'm doing.

I loved it when Usehername said, "I have to live my life intentionally." I'm exactly the same way. That's part of being an ENFP... and hopefully the depth I bring to the relationship is one of my attributes my ISTP finds endearing.

But back to the question at hand, I guess that separate from the logic loop problem, is this difference in living intentionally. If my ISTP can give me the space to live intentionally (to a point) then I can give him space to live in the moment.

 

[sLiPpY]

uh, what about "intentionally living in the moment."

 

[StephMC]

uh, what about "intentionally living in the moment."

Yeah, I feel like the things I do in the moment are intentional, too. It's the decisions that are a bit off in the future that I "go with the flow" with... up until they are the here and now. I may just be making shit up, but I feel like it goes a little something like this:

My Se sees an opportunity, and my Ti + Ni calculates the pros and cons and foresees the possible future benefits and consequences.

My Ni pops in and out like a little quick check when making important decisions. It makes sure that those "in the moment" decisions I'm making are actually consistent with what I want or see myself doing. It makes my whims into decisions with intent.