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  1. #11
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    YouTube - Seinfeld: Kramer on Marriage

    [YOUTUBE="suAhGfVr_4U"]Seinfeld: Kramer on Marriage[/YOUTUBE]

  2. #12
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfisher View Post
    that is how i feel too, i think that works well.
    it's got to feel right.

    my wife and i lived together for 5 years before we got married. we just let things take their own course.
    +1,000 to the wise and good Kingfisher.

    Same story for me, Bro.

    My wife and I lived together for 5 years before we got married. We've been together for 16 years total at this point. When you're with the right person you know, formalcy does not add to or take away from the relationship, it will happen when the time is right.
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  3. #13
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Just to put it on record:

    All the SPs seem in agreement on this topic and their opinions are all congruent with their worldviews. Important question, though: EW, is this congruent with your worldview?

    I would never, ever "just let things take their own course"* because it does not mesh with my worldview of carefully and intentionally choosing the way in which I make commitments of all sorts--interpersonal, career, in terms of team sport commitments or volunteering or what have you. . .

    For me, it doesn't mean that I make a long-term commitment without sufficient data--that's unreasonable. But it does mean that I break things down into pieces, and barring any non-negotiable deal breaking kinds of behaviours from others, I stick to my commitments and, at setpoints/crossroads, make decisions to invest more of myself or to part amicably. Intentional living works well for me, and encourages me to carefully invest my resources where I want them to be. I think your 3 month trial period is totally reasonable for someone with my worldview.

    My reason for posting is simply to encourage you to establish your priorities, and then live by them. If your ISTP is like these SPs, and you are too, great. Congruency! If, hoewever, you are mismatched, living by a worldview which does not mesh well with your being is only going to make you resentful and cause strife later on.


    *all due respect to every SP that has posted--I'm only noting a difference of worldview, rather than judging/placing them within a hierarchy
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  4. #14
    Junior Member missfixit's Avatar
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    this is not the only SP attitude. I'm ISTP and I don't do the "open-ended living together" arrangement with men. period.
    I do have huge problems with making a decision though, so the pressure and freaking out all sound completely normal to me. I go through that whole "How do i know if this is right? Am i supposed to be this nervous? Shouldn't i feel full of joy or something?" the loop never ends!!


    Just don't compromise your needs to meet his lack of commitment. As long as you are ok with this, then i guess just let it ride and see what happens.

  5. #15
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I think he's afraid that if he doesn't feel all gushy about getting married then either there is something wrong with him, or there's something wrong with the relationship.
    Why shouldn't he want to feel gushy about it? It seems like you feel gushy.

  6. #16
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by missfixit View Post
    this is not the only SP attitude. I'm ISTP and I don't do the "open-ended living together" arrangement with men. period.
    I do have huge problems with making a decision though, so the pressure and freaking out all sound completely normal to me. I go through that whole "How do i know if this is right? Am i supposed to be this nervous? Shouldn't i feel full of joy or something?" the loop never ends!! Just don't compromise your needs to meet his lack of commitment. As long as you are ok with this, then i guess just let it ride and see what happens.
    Missfixit, I found this very helpful. And, I think this is exactly what's going on here.

    My ISTP and I have been friends for 20 years. But we only started dating about 1.75 years ago. So I already know all the good, bad, and ugly. I'm no spring chicken (39) and neither is he (41). In other words, I've lived long enough to know who I am and what I want... and also to never again take crap from any man.

    He and I are really great together I think. We do love each other very much. And, we get along famously.

    But he gets stuck in the logical loop that Missfixit describes so well. It causes him a lot of stress and I don't want this for him. Furthermore, I don't see it as being a very helpful or productive logical exercise. How do you get out of the loop once you are in it?

    And once again, my ISTP is reading this thread. Perhaps I will be able to prevail upon him to complete his typologycentral.com email confirmation tonight.

  7. #17
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by missfixit View Post
    the pressure and freaking out all sound completely normal to me. I go through that whole "How do i know if this is right? Am i supposed to be this nervous? Shouldn't i feel full of joy or something?" the loop never ends!!


    I relate too. I actually emailed a famous career expert once with a very carefully thought out web of life career plans and contingency plans . . . she said words that enlightened me greatly:

    We would all love to know these things to place ourselves in a strong position. Unfortunately, that's not how the world works. There are no guarantees. It's a challenge for everyone. We are all doing the best with the limitations we face at the moment. That's life.


    Before this I guess, emotionally, I presumed that successful people were more clearly predicting and thus controlling their world, so I was trying to do the same. But it turns out we're all living in the dark! It was frightening and relieving at the same time to change this worldview.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  8. #18
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I would never, ever "just let things take their own course" because it does not mesh with my worldview of carefully and intentionally choosing the way in which I make commitments of all sorts... Intentional living works well for me, and encourages me to carefully invest my resources where I want them to be. I think your 3 month trial period is totally reasonable for someone with my worldview.
    Thank you Usehername for this post. It absolutely amazes me how differently Ns and Ss think about the world. In particular, NFs have a worldview in common that binds them together. So, I hear you sista!

    I know that SPs are live-in-the-moment kind of people. I understand that many people (especially the SPs posting on this thread) see marriage as superfluous to living together. I do not.

    I'm not an evangelical Christian. Nor am I even politically or socially conservative. But I have been married once before (two years in my late 20s) and I've live with someone before (4 years in my early 30s). I feel like I've learned a few things:

    #1 - Marriage does indeed change you as an individual and a couple. Does the marriage certificate itself change you? No. But it changes the way people see you. It changes the way society treats you in ways large and small. I don't care who you are, everyone derives part of their self-concept based on how they see themselves through the eyes of others. So for me, yeah, getting married does matter.

    #2 - Everything I do has to have meaning. This is one of the biggest differences between SPs and NFs/NTs. I cannot even fathom a world in which I don't know exactly why I'm doing what I'm doing.

    I loved it when Usehername said, "I have to live my life intentionally." I'm exactly the same way. That's part of being an ENFP... and hopefully the depth I bring to the relationship is one of my attributes my ISTP finds endearing.

    But back to the question at hand, I guess that separate from the logic loop problem, is this difference in living intentionally. If my ISTP can give me the space to live intentionally (to a point) then I can give him space to live in the moment.

  9. #19
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    uh, what about "intentionally living in the moment."

  10. #20
    Controlled Mischief StephMC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sLiPpY View Post
    uh, what about "intentionally living in the moment."
    Yeah, I feel like the things I do in the moment are intentional, too. It's the decisions that are a bit off in the future that I "go with the flow" with... up until they are the here and now. I may just be making shit up, but I feel like it goes a little something like this:

    My Se sees an opportunity, and my Ti + Ni calculates the pros and cons and foresees the possible future benefits and consequences.

    My Ni pops in and out like a little quick check when making important decisions. It makes sure that those "in the moment" decisions I'm making are actually consistent with what I want or see myself doing. It makes my whims into decisions with intent.
    I have an inner monologue that sounds strikingly similar to something off Animal Planet.

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