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  1. #1
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Default ESTP in a bad situation

    ESTP's, need your help!

    A good friend of mine that I work with is ESTP. He is in his early 60's and is getting treated HORRIBLY at work. We have an ESTJ boss who is turning out to be a real piece of work - everyone hates him and people are talking about getting together and writing a letter to his boss - basically ratting him out because we don't know what else to do.

    The ESTJ is basically trying to push the ESTP to quit/retire. He's treating him unfairly, calls him "an old man who needs to retire already", tells him he is slow, basically criticizes him really bad. Personally, I wouldn't want to mess with the ESTP - even in his 60's. He was in Vietnam and I don't think I'd want to see him when he's really mad. But, he just keeps tolerating it because he can't win in this situation. The supervisor has too much power. The only way he can win is to be a rat - and I think that goes against his moral code. But, he told me that he's seriously considering it.

    But, the ESTP is so frustrated that he's now taking every single day off of work. He makes up lame excuses to not be at work and we all know that he's making it up - but it's maddening because it creates SO MUCH extra work for everyone else when he isn't there. I told him, "Look buddy, I understand your pain. I really do. But, I can't keep doing all of your work or else I'm going to go nuts and I'm going to quit. I just can't do your job AND mine every day." He just says, "I feel your pain, but I need to go to the doctor, I need to go do this and do that, blah, blah, blah." He just keeps missing work (he has a ton of vacation time saved up).

    What do you guys think his frame of mind is right now? When you guys are extremely frustrated do you just say, "Screw everyone else - I'm going to look out for me, myself, and I and everyone else will just have to take care of themselves"??? I'm seeing a selfish side of him. I told him that I want a day off next week so he can't take every day off and he goes, "I don't care what you want. I'm taking it off!"

    I feel for the guy, but I want him to suck it up like we all are and not screw us over.

    Advice??? Anything I can say to him that might help him get through this? And what if I "get tough" with him and start saying things like, "you're going to have to suck this up like the rest of us. We need you at work! Stop whimping out on us and get to work!" Is that going to make him mad or do ESTP's respect it when someone shoots straight with them?
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  2. #2
    Senior Member une_autre's Avatar
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    I don't see what the problem is - he has the right to take his vacation time.

    He was not going to save it forever anyway and if he wants to take it now, I see nothing wrong in here.

    Basically, I am saying that I wouldn't care about your complaints if I had a 100 days of vacation stacked up. I wouldn't go to work if I didn't have to.

  3. #3
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    ^That's one way of looking at it. He has the time. He's basically screwing everyone over though. There's no thoughts of the consequences to the organization or his friends who work there. Yes, if you have the time you can technically take it when you want. But, I've never known anyone to say, "I'm sick on Monday. I have a friend coming to town on Tuesday. I have a funeral on Wednesday. I'm going to a soccer game on Thursday. Oh yeah, Friday I don't think I'll feel good." Monday comes. "Umm, I don't feel good."

    Come on, dude! Don't just think about yourself all the time. You're screwing people over.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    What do you guys think his frame of mind is right now? When you guys are extremely frustrated do you just say, "Screw everyone else - I'm going to look out for me, myself, and I and everyone else will just have to take care of themselves"???
    Absolutely yes! Now and forevermore.

  5. #5
    Senior Member une_autre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Come on, dude! Don't just think about yourself all the time. You're screwing people over.
    Are you close friends?
    If that's not the case, I wouldn't keep any hope of convincing him to stop taking free days.

  6. #6
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by une_autre View Post
    Are you close friends?
    If that's not the case, I wouldn't keep any hope of convincing him to stop taking free days.
    Yeah, we're as close as anyone in that joint. We're not super great friends outside of work, but we talk about stuff and get along really well.

    I have only known a few STP's and I'm starting to see a trend. When push comes to shove, they will screw you over. Obviously each individual has to be taken on his own merits, but the ones I know don't care about the consequences to "the team" or to others - even their friends. They're cool with you and they'll stay friendly with you, but if they feel like giving you the shaft, they will give you the shaft.

    I'm seriously considering bouncing up out of the place. If he's going to play his hand, then I've got to play mine. And if I leave, he has to work. His time off requests would absolutely get denied. It's too bad that it's coming to this, but I can't do two people's jobs. When I told him this, his response was just, "I hear ya! It sucks." Well, if it continues, it's really going to suck - for him.

    If he'd just be content taking say, 2 days off a week (in addition to the weekends - that means he's only working 3 days a week), it could all work out for everyone. But, he has to push it to the limit and call out every single day, leaving most of his work to me. I can't sacrifice my own happiness and stress-level because a 60-year old man wants to play hooky from work every day and go fishing at my expense.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  7. #7
    Senior Member une_autre's Avatar
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    Getting along doesn't mean friends. I would never do anything like that to my friends. I would however not hesitate to do it to other people, regardless of how well we get along.

    This being said, I am not advocating for his behaviour, but I do understand where it comes from. Yes, it is unfair for you, but maybe you should find a solution, because he won't come back just because you have to work three times as much.

  8. #8
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by une_autre View Post
    This being said, I am not advocating for his behaviour, but I do understand where it comes from.
    Where does it come from? That's what I'm trying to understand.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Where does it come from? That's what I'm trying to understand.
    I think it's obvious where it's coming from he's being mistreated at work, and can't do anything about it. It stresses him out and his natural reaction is to think 'Screw this, I'm doing whatever the fuck I want'.

    Still sucks for you of course, but based on what I've read there is little you can do to change his mind, especially trying to force him to come back.

    Good luck anyway

  10. #10
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    If the company has a Human Resources department, the ESTP should utilize it. Verbal Harrassment of an older worker is an exposure any company would be wise to avoid. The primary function of Human Resources is to protect the company from potentially being sued by an employee.

    Which is a concept that would probably come as a surprise to most people.

    Under no circumstances does one ever diss thy boss to their boss. No matter how bad they suck. Human Resources will step in to take action in the company's interest. Human Resources > than any manager in a company.

    I've seen HR fire an employee without consulting the employee's reporting manager. I've also seen a VP disappear after an HR department got involved.

    As to STP's...it is wise not to piss us off. We're a patient lot. Three strikes, you're out! We'll be cool to you, but f* ck with me...

    And I'll set a chain of events in motion, where the other party finds itself run over by it's own bus. They'll never even see it coming. It's wicked "Artisan"

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