[ESTP] ESTP in a bad situation

[INTPness]

ESTP's, need your help!

A good friend of mine that I work with is ESTP. He is in his early 60's and is getting treated HORRIBLY at work. We have an ESTJ boss who is turning out to be a real piece of work - everyone hates him and people are talking about getting together and writing a letter to his boss - basically ratting him out because we don't know what else to do.

The ESTJ is basically trying to push the ESTP to quit/retire. He's treating him unfairly, calls him "an old man who needs to retire already", tells him he is slow, basically criticizes him really bad. Personally, I wouldn't want to mess with the ESTP - even in his 60's. He was in Vietnam and I don't think I'd want to see him when he's really mad. But, he just keeps tolerating it because he can't win in this situation. The supervisor has too much power. The only way he can win is to be a rat - and I think that goes against his moral code. But, he told me that he's seriously considering it.

But, the ESTP is so frustrated that he's now taking every single day off of work. He makes up lame excuses to not be at work and we all know that he's making it up - but it's maddening because it creates SO MUCH extra work for everyone else when he isn't there. I told him, "Look buddy, I understand your pain. I really do. But, I can't keep doing all of your work or else I'm going to go nuts and I'm going to quit. I just can't do your job AND mine every day." He just says, "I feel your pain, but I need to go to the doctor, I need to go do this and do that, blah, blah, blah." He just keeps missing work (he has a ton of vacation time saved up).

What do you guys think his frame of mind is right now? When you guys are extremely frustrated do you just say, "Screw everyone else - I'm going to look out for me, myself, and I and everyone else will just have to take care of themselves"??? I'm seeing a selfish side of him. I told him that I want a day off next week so he can't take every day off and he goes, "I don't care what you want. I'm taking it off!"

I feel for the guy, but I want him to suck it up like we all are and not screw us over.

Advice??? Anything I can say to him that might help him get through this? And what if I "get tough" with him and start saying things like, "you're going to have to suck this up like the rest of us. We need you at work! Stop whimping out on us and get to work!" Is that going to make him mad or do ESTP's respect it when someone shoots straight with them?

 

[une_autre]

I don't see what the problem is - he has the right to take his vacation time.

He was not going to save it forever anyway and if he wants to take it now, I see nothing wrong in here.

Basically, I am saying that I wouldn't care about your complaints if I had a 100 days of vacation stacked up. I wouldn't go to work if I didn't have to.

 

[INTPness]

^That's one way of looking at it. He has the time. He's basically screwing everyone over though. There's no thoughts of the consequences to the organization or his friends who work there. Yes, if you have the time you can technically take it when you want. But, I've never known anyone to say, "I'm sick on Monday. I have a friend coming to town on Tuesday. I have a funeral on Wednesday. I'm going to a soccer game on Thursday. Oh yeah, Friday I don't think I'll feel good." Monday comes. "Umm, I don't feel good."

Come on, dude! Don't just think about yourself all the time. You're screwing people over.

 

[bcvcdc]

What do you guys think his frame of mind is right now? When you guys are extremely frustrated do you just say, "Screw everyone else - I'm going to look out for me, myself, and I and everyone else will just have to take care of themselves"???

Absolutely yes! Now and forevermore.

 

[une_autre]

Come on, dude! Don't just think about yourself all the time. You're screwing people over.

Are you close friends?
If that's not the case, I wouldn't keep any hope of convincing him to stop taking free days.

 

[INTPness]

Are you close friends?
If that's not the case, I wouldn't keep any hope of convincing him to stop taking free days.

Yeah, we're as close as anyone in that joint. We're not super great friends outside of work, but we talk about stuff and get along really well.

I have only known a few STP's and I'm starting to see a trend. When push comes to shove, they will screw you over. Obviously each individual has to be taken on his own merits, but the ones I know don't care about the consequences to "the team" or to others - even their friends. They're cool with you and they'll stay friendly with you, but if they feel like giving you the shaft, they will give you the shaft.

I'm seriously considering bouncing up out of the place. If he's going to play his hand, then I've got to play mine. And if I leave, he has to work. His time off requests would absolutely get denied. It's too bad that it's coming to this, but I can't do two people's jobs. When I told him this, his response was just, "I hear ya! It sucks." Well, if it continues, it's really going to suck - for him.

If he'd just be content taking say, 2 days off a week (in addition to the weekends - that means he's only working 3 days a week), it could all work out for everyone. But, he has to push it to the limit and call out every single day, leaving most of his work to me. I can't sacrifice my own happiness and stress-level because a 60-year old man wants to play hooky from work every day and go fishing at my expense.

 

[une_autre]

Getting along doesn't mean friends. I would never do anything like that to my friends. I would however not hesitate to do it to other people, regardless of how well we get along.

This being said, I am not advocating for his behaviour, but I do understand where it comes from. Yes, it is unfair for you, but maybe you should find a solution, because he won't come back just because you have to work three times as much.

 

[INTPness]

This being said, I am not advocating for his behaviour, but I do understand where it comes from.

Where does it come from? That's what I'm trying to understand.

 

[HerrDoktor]

Where does it come from? That's what I'm trying to understand.

I think it's obvious where it's coming from he's being mistreated at work, and can't do anything about it. It stresses him out and his natural reaction is to think 'Screw this, I'm doing whatever the fuck I want'.

Still sucks for you of course, but based on what I've read there is little you can do to change his mind, especially trying to force him to come back.

Good luck anyway

 

[sLiPpY]

If the company has a Human Resources department, the ESTP should utilize it. Verbal Harrassment of an older worker is an exposure any company would be wise to avoid. The primary function of Human Resources is to protect the company from potentially being sued by an employee.

Which is a concept that would probably come as a surprise to most people.

Under no circumstances does one ever diss thy boss to their boss. No matter how bad they suck. Human Resources will step in to take action in the company's interest. Human Resources > than any manager in a company.

I've seen HR fire an employee without consulting the employee's reporting manager. I've also seen a VP disappear after an HR department got involved.

As to STP's...it is wise not to piss us off. We're a patient lot. Three strikes, you're out! We'll be cool to you, but f* ck with me...

And I'll set a chain of events in motion, where the other party finds itself run over by it's own bus. They'll never even see it coming. It's wicked "Artisan"

 

[INTPness]

If the company has a Human Resources department, the ESTP should utilize it. Verbal Harrassment of an older worker is an exposure any company would be wise to avoid. The primary function of Human Resources is to protect the company from potentially being sued by an employee.

Which is a concept that would probably come as a surprise to most people.

Under no circumstances does one ever diss thy boss to their boss. No matter how bad they suck. Human Resources will step in to take action in the company's interest. Human Resources > than any manager in a company.

I've seen HR fire an employee without consulting the employee's reporting manager. I've also seen a VP disappear after an HR department got involved.

As to STP's...it is wise not to piss us off. We're a patient lot. Three strikes, you're out! We'll be cool to you, but f* ck with me...

And I'll set a chain of events in motion, where the other party finds itself run over by it's own bus. They'll never even see it coming. It's wicked "Artisan"

Yeah, he's talked about going to HR and also about going straight to the supervisors boss. He's nearing the end of his career and I think he's willing to hang this ESTJ out to dry, if he finds it necessary to do so. I don't know what's holding him back though. He keeps saying, "next time he says something disrespectful to me, I'm going to his boss or HR." But, he doesn't do it. So, I don't know.

Yeah, I know about you guys setting traps and having people run over by their own bus and stuff like that. NP's might be the only types that can see those things coming (Ne anticipates everything, all possibilities are considered, even the possibility of being sabotaged). And after it happens and nobody knows what went wrong, we're able to go, "heh heh heh. I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED HERE!"

I actually had it out with the ESTP the other day. I told him that I understand his frustration but he's being totally selfish and unfair and that he has a bad attitude on a daily basis (which he does; and the root cause of it is working several years with this ESTJ boss). I was trying to "wake him up" or "snap him out of his funk". He just goes, "You don't know what fair is! But, that's OK. Don't worry."

I knew I was going to be in one of his traps soon enough, so I apologized and bought the poor chap a beer.

It really is rough what he's going through. I hate to say, "Rat out our supervisor!!!" But, that's really what it's coming to. Mr. Supervisor hasn't left people many options.

 

[spin-1/2-nuclei]

ESTP's, need your help!

Advice??? Anything I can say to him that might help him get through this? And what if I "get tough" with him and start saying things like, "you're going to have to suck this up like the rest of us. We need you at work! Stop whimping out on us and get to work!" Is that going to make him mad or do ESTP's respect it when someone shoots straight with them?

If you guys noticed that the ESTP was being mistreated then stand up for him formally with the letter, as you suggested. You can't expect him to come to work every day and get treated like shit, and if he has sick days and can use them, then why shouldn't he? Perhaps he is actually feeling ill from the stress of work and he feels like he shouldn't put his health on the line for any of you since none of you are willing to stick up for him when you know that he is being mistreated.

I don't know the guy so whatever I say is purely opinion, but if it were me I would take my sick days too unless you guys were willing to stick up for me. If you quit occasionally they don't permit you to take your sick days paid (especially in this economy), moreover does he have a retirement package? Perhaps he is just trying to hang on for a few more months until he hits the magic date so that he doesn't lose anything...

Try to put yourself in his shoes, it isn't like it's unheard of for companies to try to push people out of their jobs to avoid paying out their pensions or retirements. The guy is probably scared and doesn't know who to trust. Or maybe he really can't afford to retire. It sucks that you have to pick up his slack, but it seems like you'll have to either help the guy out and make sure that he is treated better at work or suffer the consequences of his absence and try to make do with his workload on top of yours as best you can.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Why don't you decide not to do more than your fair share of work? Your boss isn't going to make any changes if productivity is being met.

This has happened to me in my job. I just concentrated on my own reasonable workload and nothing else. Things got real crappy for a while (basically we collectively got blamed for not working as a team) but guess what? Management started seeing who was slacking and who wasn't and took the appropriate steps and I kept my sanity.

 

[sLiPpY]

Best advice is not to worry about the ole' guy if he's self-inflicting. i.e. Won't take action, and won't fortify his own position.

For others, one is always more successful if they approach HR asking for help in trying to figure out how to work well with the boss. Give examples of strategy's already attempted. Or problems that the lack of communication is causing for the organization, regardless of how it makes one feel. Just clearly state a situation without telling HR what the perceived cause and effect is. Just the facts ma'm

The above steps are only if one cares to remain, and self-realizes they're not willing to continue on with the status quo. It's at this point you update a resume and put it out.

Such scenario's are always inherently "power plays" sometimes you win, and sometimes you lose. It does feel good to win when it helps others vs. purely selfish.

The other option and the one I'd more readily choose is just to find another job. Or, maybe the ESTP's current strategy is the wisest choice for him. Although it sounds like he's putting himself at risk of letting the boss unfairly win, by providing un-necessary exposures?

 

[INTPness]

To answer some of your guys' questions:

-He says he's not ready (financially) to retire, so he's trying to hang on. And the boss is not happy about this. Wants him gone.
-He is having health problems, which obviously complicates the situation.

As far as "sticking up for him", the problem is that there's no real "unity" amongst the other employees. When I talk to the others individually, they all say, "Oh yeah, I'm so tired of the supervisor! He's a jerk! Something should be done." But, as soon as you suggest some real action, nobody wants to be involved. They all fear being fired or having to come back to work (after going to HR) and be subject to his wrath, or they just generally don't want to rock the boat too much (rather just deal with it and try to diffuse it or put it out of their mind).

I suppose I could be the big man in the building and single-handedly say "I'm not standing for this anymore!" I've certainly thought about that before. And I did actually call the boss out in front of everyone once (and it shut him up temporarily and he has since been very careful when talking to me), but then the boss went behind my back and talked about me to...are you ready for this? - to the ESTP!!!! The ESTP told me that the boss talked about me to him!!! Ha ha. They hate each other, but the ESTJ goes to him and talks about other people. The ESTP wanted to tell him off right there, but he held back. It's a twisted situation. Everyone is in agreement, but nobody is willing to put their individual neck on the line.

If I put my neck on the line, I'd be gone. I'm in more of a "contractor" role - I'm highly disposable. I don't know what the answer is. I've begun to just go into work and focus on what I have to do. Whether that takes 5 hours or 16 hours. Just do it to the best of my ability and go home happy.

 

[spin-1/2-nuclei]

To answer some of your guys' questions:

-He says he's not ready (financially) to retire, so he's trying to hang on. And the boss is not happy about this. Wants him gone.
-He is having health problems, which obviously complicates the situation.

As far as "sticking up for him", the problem is that there's no real "unity" amongst the other employees. When I talk to the others individually, they all say, "Oh yeah, I'm so tired of the supervisor! He's a jerk! Something should be done." But, as soon as you suggest some real action, nobody wants to be involved. They all fear being fired or having to come back to work (after going to HR) and be subject to his wrath, or they just generally don't want to rock the boat too much (rather just deal with it and try to diffuse it or put it out of their mind).

I suppose I could be the big man in the building and single-handedly say "I'm not standing for this anymore!" I've certainly thought about that before. And I did actually call the boss out in front of everyone once (and it shut him up temporarily and he has since been very careful when talking to me), but then the boss went behind my back and talked about me to...are you ready for this? - to the ESTP!!!! The ESTP told me that the boss talked about me to him!!! Ha ha. They hate each other, but the ESTJ goes to him and talks about other people. The ESTP wanted to tell him off right there, but he held back. It's a twisted situation. Everyone is in agreement, but nobody is willing to put their individual neck on the line.

If I put my neck on the line, I'd be gone. I'm in more of a "contractor" role - I'm highly disposable. I don't know what the answer is. I've begun to just go into work and focus on what I have to do. Whether that takes 5 hours or 16 hours. Just do it to the best of my ability and go home happy.

Yeah that pretty much sucks then... it's easy for me to tell you to stick up for the guy when I'm not the one facing the chopping block. Is there anyway you can get his idiot boss on tape? If he treats this guy like shit often then maybe you can catch him on tape and send that to HR anonymously? Obviously that is a really long shot and I have no idea what your employer's rules are for recording devices on the campus. Also if you actually considered doing something like this (a friend of mine did do something like this once with a nanny cam) you'll have to check up on your state's laws for things like reasonable expectation of privacy? A lawyer could help with that I guess, but by the time you go through all of that trouble it might be better to just put up with doing the other guy's work. It really sucks to be you, sorry I couldn't come up with anything more creative than that, but that's all I got.

 

[Halla74]

When faced with a situation where there is no chance for victory, as is the case for your (allegedly) ESTP friend, it seems to me like he is going to choose the path of least resistance for himself.

Doing so creates the following outcomes:

(1) He does not have to put up with his (abusive) ESTJ boss's shit, or challenge him directly, he merely avoids the issue entirely, and still gets his paycheck.

(2) Y'all figure out that your boss is an (abusive) ESTJ shitbag and that y'all have to pick up the slack where your (allegedly) ESTP friend is not working, as he is sick of your boss's shit. This is brilliant as he recruits you and your coworkers implicitly to advocate for him, whether directly, or by picking up some of the shit he would have to do if he were there.

(3) He uses his leave at 100% of pay, instead of getting cashed out at a fraction of its worth if terminated.

(4) He has time to look for a new job.

(5) He has time to find a lawyer to sue the company for age discrimination.

I think he is doing just fine. He knows it is not wise to try and take a well fortified hill with standard infantry equipment. He knows that the only time one perishes is during an offensive, and is side-stepping that possibility to fight a better fight on a better day, if not avoid the whole situation entirely. What he does after the matter resolved as a matter of payback is icing on the cake. Your friend is doing just fine.

 

[sLiPpY]

When faced with a situation where there is no chance for victory, as is the case for your (allegedly) ESTP friend, it seems to me like he is going to choose the path of least resistance for himself.

Doing so creates the following outcomes:

(1) He does not have to put up with his (abusive) ESTJ boss's shit, or challenge him directly, he merely avoids the issue entirely, and still gets his paycheck.

(2) Y'all figure out that your boss is an (abusive) ESTJ shitbag and that y'all have to pick up the slack where your (allegedly) ESTP friend is not working, as he is sick of your boss's shit. This is brilliant as he recruits you and your coworkers implicitly to advocate for him, whether directly, or by picking up some of the shit he would have to do if he were there.

(3) He uses his leave at 100% of pay, instead of getting cashed out at a fraction of its worth if terminated.

(4) He has time to look for a new job.

(5) He has time to find a lawyer to sue the company for age discrimination.

I think he is doing just fine. He knows it is not wise to try and take a well fortified hill with standard infantry equipment. He knows that the only time one perishes is during an offensive, and is side-stepping that possibility to fight a better fight on a better day, if not avoid the whole situation entirely. What he does after the matter resolved as a matter of payback is icing on the cake. Your friend is doing just fine.

yeah, sounds like the ESTP's strategy is working out just fine.

Amazes me STP's seem to know so well...you can't count on other people to take action. Even for themselves. We tend to pick and choose the timing of our battles.

The only person in this whole wide world that will ever stand up for you is yourself. I'm more than worth it. And I do, sometimes at risk of great peril.

 

[Halla74]

yeah, sounds like the ESTP's strategy is working out just fine.

Amazes me STP's seem to know so well...you can't count on other people to take action. Even for themselves. We tend to pick and choose the timing of our battles.

The only person in this whole wide world that will ever stand up for you is yourself. I'm more than worth it. And I do, sometimes at risk of great peril.

I couldn't have said that better myself, NICE!!!