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[MBTI General] ESTJ confused by ESFP friend

EJCC

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I have a good ESFP friend who I've known for at least five years. She's a cool person - very fun, nerdy, smart, entertaining, etc. - but I've been confused by her recently. Here's how it all started:

There's an application on Facebook where you pick your "top five" things, e.g. favorite foods. I went to her facebook page, and she had done one of those things: "Top 5 Things That Remind You of Your Best Friend". Those five things all described me, meaning that I'm her best friend, which I had no idea of until then. I asked her if she was really talking about me (because I didn't want to assume anything like that - best friends are serious bizness), and her response was "I don't know whether to laugh or cry...", i.e. of COURSE I'm her best friend! What was I thinking??

I thought about why I was so surprised that she would say that I'm her best friend, and I realized that there were two reasons. Firstly, we mostly talk about superficial things, e.g. mutual interests, random jokes, etc, and even then, we have so few mutual interests that sometimes there are silences in our conversations that I find awkward (though I don't know if she does too). Secondly, and most importantly, I've never felt like she cared about me, because she never seems to want to talk about me.

^That second thing is the reason why I'm making this thread. I'm sure she cares about me, since she wouldn't consider me to be her best friend otherwise, but there's no way that I'm ever going to want our friendship to be closer unless she starts talking to me about me. I am not exaggerating when I say that she has NEVER asked me how I'm doing, or what's been going on in my life, and whenever I say something about myself, she'll use it to turn the conversation in a direction that leads to another story about her life. In other words, every conversation we have, if it isn't about someone or something unrelated to us, is about HER, and her alone. And that's starting to piss me off.

Lol, isn't it ironic that in this case, it's the ESTJ in the friendship that's thinking "I give and give and give, so why do I get nothing in return???"

I know she means well, and I know that she's socially awkward (e.g. she spent at least half of our high school prom sitting at a table, drinking sparkling cider, and wallowing in thoughts like "I'm so awkward. No one likes me. Why do I even go to these things?"), so she presumably has very good excuses for acting the way she does, but I still really, really, really want this problem to be solved one way or another. But I don't want to hurt her feelings, so I can't use my preferred method of problem solving (i.e. getting the job done quickly and directly).

Do any of you ESFPs (who are obviously much healthier than her) have any insights as to why she acts like this, and/or what I can do about it?
 

Jeffster

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What were the 5 things?
 

EJCC

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I don't remember - it was a long time ago. Just stuff like "Singing along to West Side Story" - you know, memories, inside jokes, etc.

Why do you ask?
 

Jeffster

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I don't remember - it was a long time ago. Just stuff like "Singing along to West Side Story" - you know, memories, inside jokes, etc.

Why do you ask?

Because it seems like she would have to talk about you in order to talk about being reminded of you.

I share things about me because I don't know what else to say. Maybe she doesn't either. Why is it important to you that she ask you how you're doing? What would be the benefit of your relationship being "closer?"

Also, have you ever talked to her about this? I mean, said to her directly "How come you never ask how I'm doing?" or flat out tell her you'd like her to? I dunno, I'm just throwing out ideas to maybe help. Everybody's different, so I can just say how I would be.

I do ask people how they're doing, but not very often. It seems like filler to me. Most people tend to indicate how they're doing, especially extroverts. I do try to listen to people talk about themselves. But it does usually make me think of something about myself to say. To me, that's just normal conversation flow. I don't really understand why it would be a problem. But for all I know, I've annoyed people the same way and no one told me.
 

EJCC

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Because it seems like she would have to talk about you in order to talk about being reminded of you.
The impression I've received from her is that she'll see something and be reminded of me. e.g. a strawberry (since one of our inside jokes involves strawberries). I've never gotten the impression that she would talk about me. But you're right - maybe she does.

I share things about me because I don't know what else to say. Maybe she doesn't either. Why is it important to you that she ask you how you're doing? What would be the benefit of your relationship being "closer?"
I just feel really bad about the fact that I'm her best friend and she's hardly even a good friend to me. It would make it less awkward, I think, if I felt at least a little bit closer to the same thing that she feels about me.

And the reason why I said the thing about her not asking me how I'm doing, ever, is that, literally, all of our conversations are about her. We talk all the time about her various issues. I help her through tough-ish times! I give her advice on how to deal with guys! And when I try to mention something about myself, in the hopes that she'll show some interest, she shrugs it off. Also, one of the ways that I show people that I care is by showing that I remember what's going on in their lives - e.g. "Hey, you were really concerned about that exam. How did it go?" And she has never asked me ANYTHING about myself before, so I always get these vibes from her, like she's just using me as someone to talk at (not talk with).

Also, have you ever talked to her about this? I mean, said to her directly "How come you never ask how I'm doing?" or flat out tell her you'd like her to?
I'm scared of being that direct with her, which is why I'm asking here...

I do ask people how they're doing, but not very often. It seems like filler to me. Most people tend to indicate how they're doing, especially extroverts. I do try to listen to people talk about themselves. But it does usually make me think of something about myself to say. To me, that's just normal conversation flow. I don't really understand why it would be a problem. But for all I know, I've annoyed people the same way and no one told me.
I know what you mean about asking people how they're doing. I probably shouldn't have phrased it that way. I meant, asking me about anything that's going on in my life. You know, "How's school?" or something. At the very least, transitioning from herself to me once and a while, e.g. "I love this class I'm taking! blah blah blah. How about your classes? Do you like any of them that much?" <--- 'cause I try to do that with her, and there's no reciprocation.

As to the conversation flow thing, you're right - that's how it is with everyone, I think. But with my friend, it's kind of to an extreme.

Maybe I should ask you - how do you show someone that you care, when you talk to them?
 

PeaceBaby

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My son is ESFP and seldom seems to ask others about specifics either. He'll go out with friends, and we'll ask him - "So how is school going for X?" - he never asks though, so never knows. Perhaps there's some similarity there.

He loves hanging around these guys, they are all his friends, but the details don't seem a priority.
 

Jeffster

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I'm scared of being that direct with her, which is why I'm asking here...

SCARED? SCARED? AN ESTJ SCARED OF BEING DIRECT? SUCK IT UP YA PANSY!! ;);)

Seriously, though, if it's important enough to you, then you should ask. If she's ESFP, she probably won't even be offended. And even if she was, she'd get over it quickly probably. Just start talking about her again. :laugh:

Some people are just selfish. She might be. But then, she might just be doing what she knows to do, and it hasn't really occurred to her to ask stuff.

It occurs to me now that the ESTJ friend that I know the best, I don't know if I ever really asked her about her life either. But the thing is, she always volunteers stuff, so I never have felt like I had to ask. If you're anything like her, you probably project an air of total self-assurance. That you always have everything together and don't need anybody to be concerned about you. That's the way my friend is. And if so, she might have wondered stuff about you, but didn't want to bother you by asking. She might figure if it was important for you to tell her then you would.

All of this is speculation of course. I don't know this girl and can't be inside her head.


I know what you mean about asking people how they're doing. I probably shouldn't have phrased it that way. I meant, asking me about anything that's going on in my life. You know, "How's school?" or something. At the very least, transitioning from herself to me once and a while, e.g. "I love this class I'm taking! blah blah blah. How about your classes? Do you like any of them that much?" <--- 'cause I try to do that with her, and there's no reciprocation.

As to the conversation flow thing, you're right - that's how it is with everyone, I think. But with my friend, it's kind of to an extreme.

You could also try some humor, too. Next time she does this, interrupt her and say "hey! I was talking about me here!" and then laugh. Chances are she'll laugh too and then maybe listen better. Or she could just be like "That reminds me of this other thing I did..." but hey, it's worth a try.

Maybe I should ask you - how do you show someone that you care, when you talk to them?

That's a darn good question. I don't know if anyone knows that I care, which sounds kinda sad, but honestly I don't get a lot of feedback from people on that. I give people things - sometimes stuff I make or take them out to movies or meals and stuff, I figure those things show that I care, but maybe not. Maybe I should ask people more often. I try to be polite but maybe people think that's just an act, I dunno. Now I'm starting to doubt myself. Thanks a lot! :newwink:

My son is ESFP and seldom seems to ask others about specifics either. He'll go out with friends, and we'll ask him - "So how is school going for X?" - he never asks though, so never knows. Perhaps there's some similarity there.

He loves hanging around these guys, they are all his friends, but the details don't seem a priority.

Yeah, my first reaction on reading EJCC's topic here was "Do you like hanging out with her? Yes/No? If yes, then everything is cool. Anything else is just needless complication." :blush:
 

King sns

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Do any of you ESFPs (who are obviously much healthier than her) have any insights as to why she acts like this, and/or what I can do about it?

No, I can't relate at all. She sounds really lonely though
 

EJCC

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SCARED? SCARED? AN ESTJ SCARED OF BEING DIRECT? SUCK IT UP YA PANSY!! ;);)
:laugh: I know, it sounds contradictory and ridiculous. But it's my Enneagram's fault (I'm a 1w2)... frickin' 2 wing... :dont:

Seriously, though, if it's important enough to you, then you should ask. If she's ESFP, she probably won't even be offended. And even if she was, she'd get over it quickly probably. Just start talking about her again. :laugh:
But she seems like such a sensitive type to me - you know, as if, were I to say that to her up front, she'd wallow in self-pity for days about it. But maybe not...

Some people are just selfish. She might be. But then, she might just be doing what she knows to do, and it hasn't really occurred to her to ask stuff.

It occurs to me now that the ESTJ friend that I know the best, I don't know if I ever really asked her about her life either. But the thing is, she always volunteers stuff, so I never have felt like I had to ask. If you're anything like her, you probably project an air of total self-assurance. That you always have everything together and don't need anybody to be concerned about you. That's the way my friend is. And if so, she might have wondered stuff about you, but didn't want to bother you by asking. She might figure if it was important for you to tell her then you would.
That's quite possible. She's a lot more openly silly/hugging/etc. with other friends than with me. She could be acting like that for the same reason that, every time I'm down, my ENFJ friend feels the need to ask me whether it's okay to hug me, instead of just doing it. I guess I just have that sort of vibe...


You could also try some humor, too. Next time she does this, interrupt her and say "hey! I was talking about me here!" and then laugh. Chances are she'll laugh too and then maybe listen better. Or she could just be like "That reminds me of this other thing I did..." but hey, it's worth a try.
That's a good idea. I may just try that next time I chat with her, if I'm in that sort of silly mood :)

That's a darn good question. I don't know if anyone knows that I care, which sounds kinda sad, but honestly I don't get a lot of feedback from people on that. I give people things - sometimes stuff I make or take them out to movies or meals and stuff, I figure those things show that I care, but maybe not. Maybe I should ask people more often. I try to be polite but maybe people think that's just an act, I dunno. Now I'm starting to doubt myself. Thanks a lot! :newwink:
:laugh: Sorry about that. Don't worry about it. I'm sure it's very different with ESFPs anyway. I mean, think about the differences between INFJs and ENFJs in how they express affection for people! It's insane. For example, my INFJ mom is very indirect about that with me, and makes her loving comments seem funny/silly to disguise the depth of her feeling, whereas my ENFJ best friend is so open about his appreciation for people that he'll just go up to them and say things like "I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate you. You're wonderful and sweet and I'm grateful to have you as a friend."

She sounds really lonely though
I think you're right. Because she's nerdy and socially awkward, she doesn't make friends very easily. And that's part of the reason why I want to be better friends with her - because if our friendship (which is not deep at all, and has tons of awkward silences and such) is her best one, then I feel sorry for her, and I want her to have more than that.

So, since you said before that you don't relate at all, does that mean that everything I was bitching about in the first post is just specific to her? In which case, how do normal, healthy ESFPs express how they care for someone in their everyday life?
 

onemoretime

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My son is ESFP and seldom seems to ask others about specifics either. He'll go out with friends, and we'll ask him - "So how is school going for X?" - he never asks though, so never knows. Perhaps there's some similarity there.

He loves hanging around these guys, they are all his friends, but the details don't seem a priority.

He's also a guy. Men don't generally talk about the specifics in their lives when socializing.
 

miss fortune

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funny... one of my ISTJs best friends is an unhealthy ESFP... he's a lot of fun to hang out with, but I've always thought that their friendship seemed rather one sided- the ESFP will talk about his life and problems and the ISTJ will tell him how to solve them... they've even gotten to the point where my ISTJ has control over the ESFPs finances in order to help him get his life together :shock:

I've always wondered about HOW they are friends when they have such a weird friendship (and the ESFPs ESFJ fiance has expressed the same amazement) :)
 

EJCC

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funny... one of my ISTJs best friends is an unhealthy ESFP... he's a lot of fun to hang out with, but I've always thought that their friendship seemed rather one sided- the ESFP will talk about his life and problems and the ISTJ will tell him how to solve them... they've even gotten to the point where my ISTJ has control over the ESFPs finances in order to help him get his life together :shock:

I've always wondered about HOW they are friends when they have such a weird friendship (and the ESFPs ESFJ fiance has expressed the same amazement) :)
Wow, that sounds really similar to my friendship with the ESFP in question. If they're like me and her, then they're still friends because your ISTJ would much rather solve other people's problems than have someone try to solve his own. Honestly, sometimes it's a nice break being around my ESFP friend, because I know that I'm not going to end up talking about my feelings, leaving me free to be detached and aloof, which is a lot more comfortable.
 

miss fortune

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I suspect that's one of the main reasons for their friendship! The ISTJ doesn't have to deal with talking about his job or his feelings or having anyone prying into his life- he likes solving problems and the unhealthy ESFP friend is generally a walking ball of problems! :laugh:
 

LeafAndSky

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why do I get nothing in return???"

I don't have any insight for you but wanted to let you know that you're not the only one. I have a situation that's similar regarding the main problem (although other aspects are different) so am reading with interest.
 

King sns

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So, since you said before that you don't relate at all, does that mean that everything I was bitching about in the first post is just specific to her? In which case, how do normal, healthy ESFPs express how they care for someone in their everyday life?

I think this could apply to some SFP's. We tend to be really self centered and shallow if we're not careful.

"Socially awkward" SFP sounds like an oxy moron. (I don't doubt you, but have some trouble picturing it.) People have different ways of expressing how they feel about how they care for someone. If she wants to spend a lot of time with you, that's likely showing how she cares for you. Some people, (ESFP or not) talk about themselves just to break silences and "me" is a topic that everyone knows the most about. Some people don't know how to listen, and also want to make themselves sound interesting to you. They want to sell themselves to you. That is why she is probably talking about herself a lot. (That part is something I can relate to.) A lonely, socially awkward ESFP is also likely going to want someone to talk to- (not someone to listen to.)

I'm not sure about normal, healthy ESFP's. I don't know many. I personally try to spend a lot of time with the person I care about. I call them regularly and try to get together with them. If it's a "best friend" the conversations tend to go beyond surface. Though it might not be politics, religion, and theory, it still tends to reach a greater depth than what I did last weekend. I have a healthy ESFP "best friend". We usually go out somewhere, and then we usually talk about what's been going on lately, and then it goes further in depth, (though conversations usually tend to stay people/thing/event focused) and we listen a lot to each other and ask each other a lot of questions. I can't speak for all healthy ESFP close friend type relationships. but just us two.
 

gromit

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I know she means well, and I know that she's socially awkward (e.g. she spent at least half of our high school prom sitting at a table, drinking sparkling cider, and wallowing in thoughts like "I'm so awkward. No one likes me. Why do I even go to these things?"), so she presumably has very good excuses for acting the way she does, but I still really, really, really want this problem to be solved one way or another. But I don't want to hurt her feelings, so I can't use my preferred method of problem solving (i.e. getting the job done quickly and directly).
What exactly is the problem? That you don't find her as valuable (ick... for lack of a better word) as she finds you? Or that you want a deeper friendship but don't know how? Or you want to like her more but cannot? That she is socially awkward?



I give and give and give, so why do I get nothing in return?

It seems like you do get some things in return...
Honestly, sometimes it's a nice break being around my ESFP friend, because I know that I'm not going to end up talking about my feelings, leaving me free to be detached and aloof, which is a lot more comfortable.
...just that maybe you want more than that from the relationship?
 

miss fortune

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as a note... theres a BIG difference between a healthy ESFP and an unhealthy ESFP... same as with any type really :cheese:

were I unhealthy I'd be doling out swirlies in the graveyard or something :devil:
 

King sns

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as a note... theres a BIG difference between a healthy ESFP and an unhealthy ESFP... same as with any type really :cheese:

were I unhealthy I'd be doling out swirlies in the graveyard or something :devil:

Aw sweet Whatever, you're an SP I knew it!
And 7W8, even better.

(end derail)
 

EJCC

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What exactly is the problem? That you don't find her as valuable (ick... for lack of a better word) as she finds you? Or that you want a deeper friendship but don't know how? Or you want to like her more but cannot? That she is socially awkward?
I should say up front that I agree with whatever, and therefore I'm not judging all ESFPs based on this one friend. So I don't mean to be attacking your type, and I don't mean to seem like this cold, heartless person who wants to throw a friend to the wayside because of one behavioral flaw. I'm not like that, and it makes me sad that people might think that about me. So I'll try to clear things up.

The problem is that I like there to be reciprocity in friendships, and there isn't any in my friendship with this particular ESFP. I would like to fix that somehow, but I'm not sure how - although I figure that understanding her a little better would be the first step. The part that confused me was that she considers me to be her best friend, and yet it feels to me like she's using me as someone to vent at (which is another reason why the friendship doesn't feel reciprocal). So I'm confused as to what's going on in her mind here. Is it that none of her friends are close, and even though I'm not a close friend, I'm the best she's got? Is it that, because she's a little awkward, she simply doesn't understand the value of letting the other person have a chance to talk? --> Teenagers do that a lot, and she's still a teenager, so maybe she's just more immature, and unable to understand that it isn't "all about her"? Or, finally, maybe she really does care about me, and she shows it, but because the way she shows it is something I don't recognize, I just had no idea that she was showing it.

That's my answer to your questions. I'm sorry I wasn't clearer in the OP... because I'm not an objective observer, I'm unable to speak objectively about it, which is why I rambled a little there. (Also, I haven't talked to anyone irl about this problem yet, so I haven't had time to do the extraverted thing, i.e. collect my thoughts as I speak, since I haven't spoken about it.)

It seems like you do get some things in return...

...just that maybe you want more than that from the relationship?
Talking to her about her is fine to a degree - sometimes I enjoy it - but it only works in small doses. That's why we were better friends in high school than now - because our interactions were limited to relatively brief (say, 30-minute) chats during class or lunch break. But when it gets to be an hour-long phone conversation... and it's all about her... and she won't really acknowledge anything that I say about myself except for a transitional word like "yeah"... then that gets infuriating. You understand.

Edit:
"Socially awkward" SFP sounds like an oxy moron. (I don't doubt you, but have some trouble picturing it.)
It really has more to do with her interests. She could spend hours talking animatedly to someone about Soviet Russia, and she could be very entertaining and putting on a little show with it, but most people don't care as much about that sort of topic. And for whatever reason, she doesn't realize that, instead of wallowing in self-pity when jokes or topics fail, she should go out of her way to find new ones to talk about, and fix the problem. She really does get along well with people - so I guess she isn't technically socially awkward - but she's awkward in general.

Some people, (ESFP or not) talk about themselves just to break silences and "me" is a topic that everyone knows the most about. Some people don't know how to listen, and also want to make themselves sound interesting to you. They want to sell themselves to you. That is why she is probably talking about herself a lot. (That part is something I can relate to.) A lonely, socially awkward ESFP is also likely going to want someone to talk to- (not someone to listen to.)
This makes a lot of sense. Definitely a contender, in terms of theories here.

I'm not sure about normal, healthy ESFP's. I don't know many. I personally try to spend a lot of time with the person I care about. I call them regularly and try to get together with them. If it's a "best friend" the conversations tend to go beyond surface. Though it might not be politics, religion, and theory, it still tends to reach a greater depth than what I did last weekend. I have a healthy ESFP "best friend". We usually go out somewhere, and then we usually talk about what's been going on lately, and then it goes further in depth, (though conversations usually tend to stay people/thing/event focused) and we listen a lot to each other and ask each other a lot of questions. I can't speak for all healthy ESFP close friend type relationships. but just us two.
If that's the model, then my ESFP friend and I are totally doing it wrong. :doh: But I think I knew that already...
 

King sns

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The problem is that I like there to be reciprocity in friendships, and there isn't any in my friendship with this particular ESFP. I would like to fix that somehow, but I'm not sure how - although I figure that understanding her a little better would be the first step. The part that confused me was that she considers me to be her best friend, and yet it feels to me like she's using me as someone to vent at (which is another reason why the friendship doesn't feel reciprocal). So I'm confused as to what's going on in her mind here. Is it that none of her friends are close, and even though I'm not a close friend, I'm the best she's got? Is it that, because she's a little awkward, she simply doesn't understand the value of letting the other person have a chance to talk? --> Teenagers do that a lot, and she's still a teenager, so maybe she's just more immature, and unable to understand that it isn't "all about her"? Or, finally, maybe she really does care about me, and she shows it, but because the way she shows it is something I don't recognize, I just had no idea that she was showing it.



It really has more to do with her interests. She could spend hours talking animatedly to someone about Soviet Russia, and she could be very entertaining and putting on a little show with it, but most people don't care as much about that sort of topic. And for whatever reason, she doesn't realize that, instead of wallowing in self-pity when jokes or topics fail, she should go out of her way to find new ones to talk about, and fix the problem. She really does get along well with people - so I guess she isn't technically socially awkward - but she's awkward in general.




If that's the model, then my ESFP friend and I are totally doing it wrong. :doh: But I think I knew that already...


Yes, which supports Whatever's statement- healthy ESFP's and unhealthy ESFP's are very different.

My bargain is that if she's a teenage ESFP who calls you her best friend cares about you- and if she doesn't have many other friends, I would venture to say that she needs you!

I'm not sure if she can change, though. ESFP's are terrible with criticism, so you can't necissarily say, "hey, you don't listen to me!" I'm not really sure how you would approach that.

If I were you, I would adopt her. I'm an F so I would take a charity case, knowing that I would get little in return. I think that at this point, you guys probably aren't on an equal plane.

Is there a reason that you want to be friends with her? Just feeling bad for her, perhaps? Maybe you can just gain some satisfaction from knowing that you're there for her. With your ESTJness, you might even be able to help her organize her thoughts and help her become a better person.
 
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