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  1. #21
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    How is "healthy" or "unhealthy" determined? Sounds to me like a vague value judgement based on whether someone else's habits are convenient for you.
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  2. #22
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    My bargain is that if she's a teenage ESFP who calls you her best friend cares about you- and if she doesn't have many other friends, I would venture to say that she needs you!

    I'm not sure if she can change, though. ESFP's are terrible with criticism, so you can't necissarily say, "hey, you don't listen to me!" I'm not really sure how you would approach that.

    If I were you, I would adopt her. I'm an F so I would take a charity case, knowing that I would get little in return. I think that at this point, you guys probably aren't on an equal plane.

    Is there a reason that you want to be friends with her? Just feeling bad for her, perhaps? Maybe you can just gain some satisfaction from knowing that you're there for her. With your ESTJness, you might even be able to help her organize her thoughts and help her become a better person.
    Interesting. That's actually really similar to what I've been doing - because you're right that we aren't on an equal plane - and the only difference would be changing my mindset about it, i.e. instead of expecting reciprocity and getting nothing, I would expect a mentor-ish relationship and get just that. However, I don't know if I'm well-suited to that job, personality-wise... Organizing her life, sure, but I probably would want to get something out of it besides just the satisfaction of having helped her. I know that sounds selfish, and I guess it is, but I don't think I'm as good at that sort of thing as Fs are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    How is "healthy" or "unhealthy" determined? Sounds to me like a vague value judgement based on whether someone else's habits are convenient for you.
    "Convenient"? :ouch:

    It is a value judgment, I'll admit it. But I don't know if there's another way to describe her without it being a value judgment. You can't stay objective in matters like these.

    I called her "unhealthy" because of her degree of awkwardness (defined in her case as constantly trying to be ESFP-ishly charming with topics that no one cares about but her, getting no real response, and then beating herself up about it later), and also because of her self-centric conversation style. I don't want to presume that all ESFPs are like that, so I'm calling it unhealthy, because it's negative and atypical.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Interesting. That's actually really similar to what I've been doing - because you're right that we aren't on an equal plane - and the only difference would be changing my mindset about it, i.e. instead of expecting reciprocity and getting nothing, I would expect a mentor-ish relationship and get just that. However, I don't know if I'm well-suited to that job, personality-wise... Organizing her life, sure, but I probably would want to get something out of it besides just the satisfaction of having helped her. I know that sounds selfish, and I guess it is, but I don't think I'm as good at that sort of thing as Fs are.


    I called her "unhealthy" because of her degree of awkwardness (defined in her case as constantly trying to be ESFP-ishly charming with topics that no one cares about but her, getting no real response, and then beating herself up about it later), and also because of her self-centric conversation style. I don't want to presume that all ESFPs are like that, so I'm calling it unhealthy, because it's negative and atypical.
    I wouldn't blame you if you didn't want to help her like a mentor. It can be tiring to feel less like a friend and more like volunteer work.

    Regarding her behavior, she sounds really uncomfortable in her skin. I wonder if she really is an ESFP or just a teenager who tries to act like one.
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  4. #24
    Junior Member Violator's Avatar
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    I would say find some new friends.

  5. #25
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    How is "healthy" or "unhealthy" determined? Sounds to me like a vague value judgement based on whether someone else's habits are convenient for you.
    I'm going by "goes overboard with self destructive habits and is not living even half way up to his potential" for a definition there
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #26
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    i heard socrates was a smart esfp.. he had the same problem. no one wanted to listen to him either T_T


    ahem, anyways, yeah... i might not be esfp, but i have some estj friends. mentor would not be the first role they care to play either. as for esfp, i say just hear your friend out for a little bit, and, most of all, give them a fun environment to chill. friendship doesn't have to be vocalized or direct.. just some external stimulation...even sitting around watching a movie with someone they like. that'll shut em up.

  7. #27
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Interesting. That's actually really similar to what I've been doing - because you're right that we aren't on an equal plane - and the only difference would be changing my mindset about it, i.e. instead of expecting reciprocity and getting nothing, I would expect a mentor-ish relationship and get just that. However, I don't know if I'm well-suited to that job, personality-wise... Organizing her life, sure, but I probably would want to get something out of it besides just the satisfaction of having helped her. I know that sounds selfish, and I guess it is, but I don't think I'm as good at that sort of thing as Fs are.
    No way... Ts (and TJs) are great. They help me a lot, particularly when things seem really out of control. They can give good perspective and help with personal growth in unexpected ways. Some of the people who have changed my life the most are Ts. Don't sell yourself short! (if you're up for this sort of thing in general I mean)

    I have often felt like I cannot give anything back to people who help me like that. I really want to, but I guess I feel useless at the kind of things which they are good at. At a certain point I just have to accept that they love me and have chosen to be my friend...
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  8. #28
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    i have no idea how to talk to my estj friends exactly either. i've known them for years, and they're cool enough to do things with sometimes, but i'm not really sure what's on their minds after all this time. they also take my jokes personally a lot. if it's serious discussion, one of them doesn't even know what i'm talking about if i mention depression (he's never experienced it). his advice is kind of sales oriented too, like positive thinking/law of attraction stuff. i'm too much of a cynic for that.

    that isn't say that's how estjs are.. just the ones i know. i'd actually be curious on how to be a better friend (no matter what my type is).

  9. #29
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    "Convenient"? :ouch:

    It is a value judgment, I'll admit it. But I don't know if there's another way to describe her without it being a value judgment. You can't stay objective in matters like these.

    I called her "unhealthy" because of her degree of awkwardness (defined in her case as constantly trying to be ESFP-ishly charming with topics that no one cares about but her, getting no real response, and then beating herself up about it later), and also because of her self-centric conversation style. I don't want to presume that all ESFPs are like that, so I'm calling it unhealthy, because it's negative and atypical.
    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I'm going by "goes overboard with self destructive habits and is not living even half way up to his potential" for a definition there

    I think all people are varying degrees of "healthy" or "unhealthy." That's why I said convenient. What I mean is it's convenient to categorise someone as "unhealthy" because of certain behaviors, and say "the healthy ones don't do that" like it's these two distinct categories. I don't think that helps anything. It just marginalizes people.

    You can call it my "Fi" or whatever, but that sort of stuff just bothers me. I don't think it's my place to judge what someone's potential is. Why do I get to determine how another person should live? I don't. All I determine is what I have control over. So I can choose to not hang out with someone because I don't like their habits, but screw "potential." That's just a meaningless buzzword.

    I've certainly had my share of self-destructive habits. So do I go in the unhealthy category? If so, do I get some sort of membership kit? Those used to be so cool when I was a kid, like when I joined the Robotech fan club. There were stickers and everything.
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  10. #30
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    i heard socrates was a smart esfp.. he had the same problem. no one wanted to listen to him either T_T
    Oh, come on! That's not fair! :ouch:

    ahem, anyways, yeah... i might not be esfp, but i have some estj friends. mentor would not be the first role they care to play either. as for esfp, i say just hear your friend out for a little bit, and, most of all, give them a fun environment to chill. friendship doesn't have to be vocalized or direct.. just some external stimulation...even sitting around watching a movie with someone they like. that'll shut em up.
    First instinct upon reading this: "But I HAVE been hearing her out! For the past five years!!! "
    Second instinct: "Sounds a lot like what shortnsweet said - that I should just approach the friendship from a different perspective. It's about 99% likely that she won't change, so that means that I should. Maybe I should do that."

    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    No way... Ts (and TJs) are great. They help me a lot, particularly when things seem really out of control. They can give good perspective and help with personal growth in unexpected ways. Some of the people who have changed my life the most are Ts. Don't sell yourself short! (if you're up for this sort of thing in general I mean)
    I might be up for it. I dunno. I'm not very good with touchy-feely stuff most of the time, but I'm a very good shoulder to cry on. Too bad more people don't know that about me. I like to be helpful, you know?
    I have often felt like I cannot give anything back to people who help me like that. I really want to, but I guess I feel useless at the kind of things which they are good at. At a certain point I just have to accept that they love me and have chosen to be my friend...
    You can totally give back! I'll tell you exactly how:
    1. Little things to show you care. You have no idea how much of an impact that can make. I'm not the sort of person who cries very much, but a couple of months ago I was feeling really sick, and a bit depressed, and my family sent me a care package with Ricola, a tissue box, some cookies, a vase of flowers, and a "get well soon" card. I was so moved that I almost cried.
    2. Little things to show that you know them. e.g. "Hey, the movie "___" is in town, and I remembered that you told me that you were really excited to see it. I have tickets! Want to go this afternoon?"
    3. If they're going through a tough time, let them know directly that you're there for them if they need it. They may just take you up on that. And if they do (and this is very important), take it very seriously and show them that you do. Sometimes when I open up to people, they don't react that much, and that frustrates me, because I'm thinking "Do you know how much it took for me to be able to say that to you? Could you at least recognize that I had a vulnerable moment? Don't leave me hanging!!! "
    4. Also, if they need a boost, distract them with something fun. When ESTJs are (or, at least, when I'm) feeling down, they get locked in their heads, and all they need to make themselves feel better is to get out of their heads and into the real world. Getting them out of there isn't as hard as you might think - a spontaneous late-night movie with chatting and friends is usually all I need.

    Any of those things, when done to me, are absolutely wonderful, sometimes beyond words.

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    i have no idea how to talk to my estj friends exactly either. i've known them for years, and they're cool enough to do things with sometimes, but i'm not really sure what's on their minds after all this time. they also take my jokes personally a lot. if it's serious discussion, one of them doesn't even know what i'm talking about if i mention depression (he's never experienced it). his advice is kind of sales oriented too, like positive thinking/law of attraction stuff. i'm too much of a cynic for that.

    that isn't say that's how estjs are.. just the ones i know. i'd actually be curious on how to be a better friend (no matter what my type is).
    You're right that not all ESTJs are like that, but the part that I bolded really resonates with me. Thank you for this insight. I definitely do take jokes personally when they're at my expense, and I have a tendency to register teasing as meanness. I'm trying to train myself to not think like that, though, and I'm getting better. Also, the thing about depression - that's the problem with ESTJs (or, at least, with me): we(/I) are essentially incapable of empathy unless we've either experienced the thing or something similar. As for not knowing what's on their mind... well, maybe they've decided that they don't want to open up to you. We choose our close friends very selectively, and keep everyone else at a reasonable distance. So that lack of understanding isn't your fault at all.

    But I don't understand my ESFP friend all the time - which is why I made this thread - so there you have it.

    And as for how to be a better friend, see above. I think a lot of people think, just because ESTJs seem so supremely confident and self-controlled and reliable and such, that they're fine on their own, without any help from friends. The ESTJs keep their distance, and so the friends keep their distance too. (Jeffster suggested that earlier in the thread, and he was very insightful for doing so, and I think he was right.) But sometimes, even ESTJs need someone to be there for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    You can call it my "Fi" or whatever, but that sort of stuff just bothers me. I don't think it's my place to judge what someone's potential is. Why do I get to determine how another person should live? I don't. All I determine is what I have control over. So I can choose to not hang out with someone because I don't like their habits, but screw "potential." That's just a meaningless buzzword.
    I get what you mean. I totally don't think like that at all, but that's one of the many ways that our types differ. It's all good, though, since the relative "healthiness" issue wasn't quite as important.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

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