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  1. #71
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyNoLimits View Post
    a metaphor for ISTP love, translated from T to F for your convenience.

    still waters run deep, but people only see the debris that is floating at the top, whether it is a dirty attitude blown in from nearby people or trashy thoughts someone decided to drop in on their way by. from underneath the surface, i look up at what the water looks like at the top and I feel sad. nobody is going to want to swim in that.

    occasionally, someone will notice life below the surface and take a plunge. once they're past the debris, they start to see how things really are and swim downwards. often times this is hard for them and I have to swim up instead and for a brief moment in time, we see each other eye to eye, and my love thrives in the only place it can, an underwater sanctuary. but without fail, they all eventually run out of breath or get tired of a relationship only halfway down... i dont have the heart or the words to explain that this is their own shortcoming. they won't stay long, so it's best for their peace of mind if they can blame something else for why it didnt work.

    many times, I venture out of the water and run freely above the surface, but i dont understand why people are the way they are, and i cant help but remember all of the crap floating on top of the water and feel sad. as much as id like to stay, it's not for me. the depths from whence i came, i then return again. back to a kind of loneliness few would understand, intensely quiet and peaceful, but full of life, much like the ocean floor, to wait for the day the right one dives in, dirty scuba gear and all. until then, plenty of fish in the sea to keep me company.
    Pretty right on.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  2. #72
    Senior Member mcmartinez84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyNoLimits View Post
    Don't let it get you down, just a story about a soul been there and back again. I've learned that there's lots of very valuable things in life besides finding love. Realizing that gives me a kind of freedom that I think few people get to experience, and that's definitely something positive (especially for an ISTP!)
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by StephMC View Post
    Interesting thoughts. Just to throw in another complication, I've noticed I've been more willing to let non-NF romantic interests in than NF ones. Since I don't feel like exploring on that idea much at the moment, I'm just gonna guess it's because they're looking too hard for our depth and complexity. I've always been more willing to give when I'm not being pushed for it. We're like Shrek. Remember when he said he had layers like an onion? Whether they act like they're not trying to push us or not, they're tearing off our layers faster than we can take them off ourselves, which makes us feel uncomfortable and vulnerable.

    And yes I'm aware of how that last sentence can be construed. Seems fitting since ISTPs have a reputation around here for being bad at relationships and really liking sex. So I'll keep it that way.
    Yeah... +1 to StephMC again

    I have an eNFP friend who knows MBTI stuff. And we'd talk about how different our types are and how he was ALWAYS looking for a motive or looking for my actions to mean something...and I was like "duuuude....nooooooo. srsly, nooooooo." It made me weirdly self conscious, or at least very aware of the fact that he thought everything I did meant something...so I didn't feel like I could *do* anything D:
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  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyNoLimits View Post
    a metaphor for ISTP love, translated from T to F for your convenience.

    still waters run deep, but people only see the debris that is floating at the top, whether it is a dirty attitude blown in from nearby people or trashy thoughts someone decided to drop in on their way by. from underneath the surface, i look up at what the water looks like at the top and I feel sad. nobody is going to want to swim in that.

    occasionally, someone will notice life below the surface and take a plunge. once they're past the debris, they start to see how things really are and swim downwards. often times this is hard for them and I have to swim up instead and for a brief moment in time, we see each other eye to eye, and my love thrives in the only place it can, an underwater sanctuary. but without fail, they all eventually run out of breath or get tired of a relationship only halfway down... i dont have the heart or the words to explain that this is their own shortcoming. they won't stay long, so it's best for their peace of mind if they can blame something else for why it didnt work.

    many times, I venture out of the water and run freely above the surface, but i dont understand why people are the way they are, and i cant help but remember all of the crap floating on top of the water and feel sad. as much as id like to stay, it's not for me. the depths from whence i came, i then return again. back to a kind of loneliness few would understand, intensely quiet and peaceful, but full of life, much like the ocean floor, to wait for the day the right one dives in, dirty scuba gear and all. until then, plenty of fish in the sea to keep me company.
    This reminds me of INTJ and Uumlau description of his Fi and comparing it to Fe. His vision of Fi was very similiar to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by toast View Post
    Well if it was written for NFs, I doubt you'd be satisfied with it's complexity... example: luckynolimits metaphor, while insightful, would be way too simple for my understanding or satisfaction (had i no experience being with an ISTP). To me it seems like much more than 'debris' floating on the surface. Its all surface, unless the ISTP wants you to get through it. It's disarming to an NF, who usually feels able to inspire trust in anyone. It seems more like a dark shadowy depth that is both intriguing and threatening. And the ISTP doesn't necessarily move about below that depth, he controls it... and worse, he doesn't often realize he's doing it, so there's no clear NF way of convincing him to show you what's under it. There's color & light below but it's so far down that the only time you catch a glimpse of it is when the ISTP surfaces and things get shallower for a bit. For an NF, that dark, deep surface promises treasure & discovery, but its not something as available as an NF would like (or give). It can be seen, maybe even touched, but its never going to be 'your's' to take & use as you please. To me, it seems like the 'mystery' of ISTPs is that even they aren't aware of how complex they truly are, so they put off this 'its all so simple' attitude toward life, but NFs see more. And they aren't necessarily sure or correct about what they see, but they can't expect the ISTP to actively figure it out with them. Endless potential for frustration. Also I think NFs might over analyze, as much as an ISTP would under analyze, and see things that aren't there. So to make a guide, you'd need an NFs experiences; an ISTPs insights; and then an xNTP to clean it all up. :shudder:
    This I can relate to, except I do know my complexity which makes it mean alot when people can pull me to those depths. Its not an easy thing to do to get me to stay at any decent depth. It takes alot of work because of who I am and how I process things. Thats who I am and something that will need to be worked towards as I dont know any other way and the way I know forces me to float back up to the top.
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #74
    Senior Member seamaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephMC View Post
    Interesting thoughts. Just to throw in another complication, I've noticed I've been more willing to let non-NF romantic interests in than NF ones. Since I don't feel like exploring on that idea much at the moment, I'm just gonna guess it's because they're looking too hard for our depth and complexity. I've always been more willing to give when I'm not being pushed for it. We're like Shrek. Remember when he said he had layers like an onion? Whether they act like they're not trying to push us or not, they're tearing off our layers faster than we can take them off ourselves, which makes us feel uncomfortable and vulnerable.
    I think this is true from my experience with my ISTP. For the past two weeks I just gave to him happily and freely without expecting anything back (instead of the usual where I'd feel disappointment/resentment), and then voila, one evening I came home to a beautiful vase of fringed red tulips (he went out of his way to find something unique), peanut butter brownies and fresh berries. Could my letting go have been the reason? I don't know. He doesn't readily explain his motivation for anything. It's just my guess.

    We made/ate dinner together in the dark with Pink Floyd in the background and ... very rare for him ... he turned up the intensity: winking, flirting, making deep eye contact, showing off his physical grace for me, things I'd thought he no longer found the need to do with us (we've been living together for a few months now). It was almost too much magnetism directed TO me for me to take, so I kiddingly told him to stop. =P

    But he's like that, I guess. Like the Time Traveler in The Time Traveler's Wife. While "he vanishes at inordinately frequent and lengthy intervals," when he decides to be present, he's totally there, and it's almost too intense when he is.

    I think I am getting to the point where I'm comfortable with how he does romance. Where I don't take it personally, or as a statement of our relationship's decline. This is the way he is -- for me, our relationship is always on the back burner... "fine-tuning", always in need of adjustment, as someone said. Or maybe like a live thing, a potted herb that needs constant care. For him, the relationship is always there but put away like a non-perishable, but when he decides to use it, he makes something AMAZING out of it. Then it's put away again and he goes back to doing other amazing things like his work.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by seamaid View Post
    We made/ate dinner together in the dark with Pink Floyd in the background and ... very rare for him ... he turned up the intensity: winking, flirting, making deep eye contact, showing off his physical grace for me, things I'd thought he no longer found the need to do with us (we've been living together for a few months now). It was almost too much magnetism directed TO me for me to take, so I kiddingly told him to stop. =P

    But he's like that, I guess. Like the Time Traveler in The Time Traveler's Wife. While "he vanishes at inordinately frequent and lengthy intervals," when he decides to be present, he's totally there, and it's almost too intense when he is.
    Bolded reminds me of ENFP girls actually.
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #76
    Senior Member seamaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Bolded reminds me of ENFP girls actually.
    You mean you are never like that, Poki?

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by seamaid View Post
    You mean you are never like that, Poki?
    I dont know, you would have to ask people I know. Its not something I just set out to do. If you can get me to that point then its all you. Its not something I can do on my command.
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #78
    Senior Member toast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seamaid View Post
    You mean you are never like that, Poki?
    My ISTP has never done anything like that for more than maybe 5 minutes. I think its because he's young but he seriously can't be into ME for very long. But, when he IS like that for 5 minutes, its because I haven't touched him all day. There has to be a huge gap of distance for every approach he makes towards me. I worry that its because I am so intense with him. I am working on ways to minimize how much Fe I pour out, but I'm uncertain of my limit.

    I have pretty high hopes, but simultaneously always feel this quiet nagging force that could take me over the edge if it gets too loud (I'm guessing that's an ENFJ thing). I'm sure its always been there, but I was never aware of it until him, because it pops out more in his presence. Like, I can't stand when he's upset about something. I really don't like that about myself & I want it to change. I can't impact him directly in any positive way when he's upset, so I just have to listen to him (which I want to do) & empathize (which I want to do), but I can't help. It makes me so anxious I sometimes just have to block him out. (I think he gets the same thing with me because he doesn't really get that for me, allowing me to talk about how I feel IS helping me).

    Also, poki, you say, that to control your depth, you don't really 'know any other way and the way I know forces me to float back up to the top.' I think I understand this from an opposite perspective, and its what I'm battling now. I feel like the only way to control my 'needs' for my ISTP is to keep a distance from him, because I feel so compelled to understand him that I isolate myself & try to be alone like him/with him. This is incredibly unhealthy for me, and it happens whenever I get too close to him (mainly, spend too much time with him). I need some things he can't provide, so I need to be closer to other people than I am to him in some areas of my life.

    I have never really been aware of what I need. I just knew it involved people, experience & accomplishment (with meaning in these being key). What I really need from my ISTP is easy to define in theory, but in practice, it is a mystery. I feel like I'm getting enough of it to get by but I'm always worried one day I'll just snap. I'm actually sure I already have before (and I feel like each time I do, I'm about to throw away something I truly want out of fear). I am actually feeling so so so much better lately (I actually felt a complete shift in my perspective, confidence, ease of mind, recently), but it came after a long period of being extremely distant (in my terms) from my ISTP.

    My problem is: during this time, he was anxious, unsettled (I think this was based on the circumstances though). I felt better all around, more like myself & in control, but became increasingly desperate for genuine affection with him. Its like I become healthy in myself when I do this, but in doing so I become more in touch with my ENFJness. So my love for him becomes so extroverted and, in missing his company, I feel liable to just get too intense in what I see as a good way, but for him its more like bombardment. I feel like I'll get to some sort of working method eventually, but right now, I'm stumped. For poki, do you ever experience this with your ENFJ wife? When she spends time with her friends / projects & starts to miss you, does she become too intense with you? If so, does it ever clash with your comfort when the distance has made you charged & ready to get close but she overwhelms you? I feel like my ISTP is always just on the verge of coming to me when I get to my limit & go to him. Like if I could just wait a little longer or hold in a little more, I'd get that connection, initiated by him, I'm looking for.

    I mean, right now I'm extremely happy, at school & thinking about life & him in general. I feel more in love when I'm like this. I want to charge him when I get home. Heck! It doesn't even have to be affectionate when I'm happy (something I can't really seem to get him to understand, because my initial 'default' position is to get affectionate) but I want to do anything with him. Even the idea of skating with him or watching him work on his nightstand (newest project) is exciting... But I feel too excited for him. Like I have to watch myself or I'll look like a complete idiot or worse, make him really want to bury his face in his laptop during our day off.

    I think its so funny how much he gets to me. He's just doing his thing & I have never liked anyone more. I ISTPs. I get on here & rant like I'm about to explode & then I rave the next week about how amazing he is. Screw a guide, you guys have helped me so much more than you know by being able to personalize my situation through genuine, general insights. I know you SPs would rather be talking about beer, pets and firecrackers, but its been so helpful to me & these other NFs on here. I don't want to say you've saved my relationship, but I still have one, and its a million times better than it used to be, because I've been able to talk to you all.

    I'm done being now.
    ____________________________________________
    "In my soul rages a battle without victor. Between faith without proof and reason without charm." - Sully Prudhomme

  9. #79
    Senior Member Rachelinpa's Avatar
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    I feel like my ISTP is always just on the verge of coming to me when I get to my limit & go to him. Like if I could just wait a little longer or hold in a little more, I'd get that connection, initiated by him, I'm looking for.
    oh my gosh... story of my life! spooky! i was just wondering why my istp hadn't texted me yet today and thinking how much longer i should hold out before he initiates... i know he will... but i don't have anything to say right now anyway. i just want to feel connected!

    But I feel too excited for him. Like I have to watch myself or I'll look like a complete idiot or worse, make him really want to bury his face in his laptop during our day off.
    hm, mine does not mind the excitement in person. he is amused by it, i think. the trouble is the AWAY from each other part. somtimes i wonder if he will tire of me and if i really actually like him at all... but then we're back together and it's perfect as per usual.

  10. #80
    Senior Member toast's Avatar
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    And luckynolimits, your past experience makes me feel sorry for the world outside of you. Knowing "that there's lots of very valuable things in life besides finding love" is something ENFJs are very aware of, though its difficult to admit because we wish it could be so easy to justify such a focus on love. We see love in those things, even if its love of the self or the world or life, to compensate. I don't think an ISTP should look for someone for the sake of finding love, because I think that what you focus on is important, but when it comes I'd beg you to embrace it, even for the sake of the ones you love. I think loving is difficult for an ISTP because they are so aware of their singularity. Loving can make you feel lonely, but there is nothing comparable. ISTP love is so precious because every moment of it is a choice coming from that knowledge. I don't know too much about other types but I think it is extremely valuable & I wish an ISTP could experience the impact and excellence that feeling such a real love has on the people who get it. Its why we NFs are such ISTP junkies. It is an innocent love, its what people wish they could hold onto. Its kept that way because the ISTP never focuses on it enough to taint it with intent or capacity to denaturize itself.

    My view of an ISTP: You struggle with relationships because people struggle with you, while your focus is on things that are important to everyone without being obviously so. You make people's lives & the world a better place through keeping things fresh & keeping life what it is (whatever it is). Its abrasive at times, especially for idealists like me, because we don't want to see that things can be simple & have meaning at the same time. Its harsh for Js like me because you don't really see things in black and white & you don't really see them as relative either. You just sort of see them. Your fluid but stable, your moving but focused, you're smart but "whatever", unique but you fit, you are a walking enigma of all the stereotypes that can make a person think they have life & the world all figured out, but all this hidden under something akin to stereotype. And this is SO needed. Stereotypes help, but they just make things easier, not better. Its too easy to just label someone a freak if they break stereotypes when they are trying... but you guys are under this sort of camouflage that makes you immediately acceptable, while just enough of your 'quirk' pops out to get that hidden enigma noticed. You can call me on this idealization, but I think ISTPs might be the type to most effectively inspire people into questioning their surroundings & making themselves something more because they are simply intriguing. People don't realize they are looking, & even they don't know they're influencing anyone. This means, also, they may be the least likely to receive recognition or appreciation that is genuine and they'll certainly never feel 'understood.' I think this requires a great deal of loneliness throughout, and it is in there somewhere, well managed, but in there. If you do find someone who gets through that camouflage, & they can accept that they can't necessarily figure out a walking enigma, that must be a kind of love wholly unique to any other. Definitely worth being open to.
    ____________________________________________
    "In my soul rages a battle without victor. Between faith without proof and reason without charm." - Sully Prudhomme

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