[MBTI General] Not another ENFJ-ISTP thread...

[lalangela]

but here's another ENFJ-ISTP thread.

I'll try to make the story short and sweet although as an ENFJ, I'm tempted to start from the beginning and agonize over every event.

An ISTP and I were going to pursue a relationship. Suddenly, he changed his mind and broke it off, citing that he still liked me, "nothing had changed," and not being able to give "the time and attention that I relationship required."

One night, about two months in of maintaining a platonic friendship (minus one drunken hook up), the ISTP and I were in a room alone for ten minutes. Call me naive, but I wasn't thinking much of us being alone together. He kissed me and was completely confused when I pushed him off and told him that there was no way since he had refused me two months before. To this, he answered, "what if I changed my mind?" And I stormed out of the room, hearing his last words "then don't come back." He ignored me for the next few days until I showed up to his room, demanding to talk about the situation. (Do ISTPs change their minds like this?)

He told me he was "still physically attracted but emotionally, not as much" and that things like this happen because he was "still into me" but made no promise that he wouldn't try to make moves on me in the future. I thought that it would be best that I say I was physically attracted, but not emotionally, as well. I was hoping that he would stick to his first decision and say we should just remain friends. Instead, he suggested we "try having a physical relationship and see where it goes from there." At first, I didn't agree but gave in after he brought up how "my ENFJ personality would never allow me to keep things strictly physical." I hate challenges.

I was content with the FWB situation, nothing had happened yet, until he drunkenly hooked up with one of his close friend's ex-girlfriends at a party that our mutual friends were at. Drunkenly having sex was something the ISTP thought was one of the worst possible things to happen while drunk. He had to have known that he wasn't only going to hurt me but all of his friends by doing such a thing. What causes an ISTP to change his values? Do ISTPs often put up facades for those who they like in order to attract them?

So this is where the situation stands now. He regrets the drunken hook up and will never mention it again although I'm sure it'll be a joke among our friends for some time. Despite this, I still feel strongly for the ISTP. He's changed a lot during these past few months, taking on many qualities I don't approve of, but I can't help but hope the old him is somewhere in there.

However, I can keep these feelings in. Should I still agree to the FWB relationship? Should I even keep the friendship? What signs should I look for that he could possibly want more and is just treading slowly for now?

 

[Rebe]

Key passages.

"still physically attracted but emotionally, not as much"

He clearly said that and until he firmly changes his mind and asks for a 'second chance', I won't hold my breath and put myself in the situation of waiting.

Also, he previously said

"nothing had changed," and not being able to give "the time and attention that I relationship required."

The inconsistency makes him either a liar or flaky, neither attractive or positive traits.

"my ENFJ personality would never allow me to keep things strictly physical." I hate challenges.

Nice tactic. Don't give in to that. That is the worse excuse/reason ever.

Despite this, I still feel strongly for the ISTP. He's changed a lot during these past few months, taking on many qualities I don't approve of, but I can't help but hope the old him is somewhere in there.

I understand this is hard but the red flags are all over the place. I don't see how it would be healthy or worthwhile for you to wait for him. If you continue the FWB, you will want more because it seems you already have very strong feelings for him. If you continue the friendship, you will be tempted to hookup or you will hear stories of his other hookups and be upset.

It is awful for a person to just change their mind and give two different reasons for it and try to make it into a 'game' about who can be heartless. I was in a FWB with an ISTP as well and you can't change their minds if they are not ready for a relationship. He apologized profusely to me months later when he was ready for one.

I really won't recommend the FWB or even the friendship if you already have strong feelings. And refusing to admit your strong feelings is not the smart thing to do, I learned . Just my two cents.

Oh, signs would be when he begs for your forgiveness and begs for a second chance. Key word - begging. Okay, fine, a serious discussion about his feelings for you. I don't understand the concept of treading slowly. He needs to grow a pair.

 

[Rainne]

but here's another ENFJ-ISTP thread.

I'll try to make the story short and sweet although as an ENFJ, I'm tempted to start from the beginning and agonize over every event.

An ISTP and I were going to pursue a relationship. Suddenly, he changed his mind and broke it off, citing that he still liked me, "nothing had changed," and not being able to give "the time and attention that I relationship required."

One night, about two months in of maintaining a platonic friendship (minus one drunken hook up), the ISTP and I were in a room alone for ten minutes. Call me naive, but I wasn't thinking much of us being alone together. He kissed me and was completely confused when I pushed him off and told him that there was no way since he had refused me two months before. To this, he answered, "what if I changed my mind?" And I stormed out of the room, hearing his last words "then don't come back." He ignored me for the next few days until I showed up to his room, demanding to talk about the situation. (Do ISTPs change their minds like this?)

He told me he was "still physically attracted but emotionally, not as much" and that things like this happen because he was "still into me" but made no promise that he wouldn't try to make moves on me in the future. I thought that it would be best that I say I was physically attracted, but not emotionally, as well. I was hoping that he would stick to his first decision and say we should just remain friends. Instead, he suggested we "try having a physical relationship and see where it goes from there." At first, I didn't agree but gave in after he brought up how "my ENFJ personality would never allow me to keep things strictly physical." I hate challenges.

I was content with the FWB situation, nothing had happened yet, until he drunkenly hooked up with one of his close friend's ex-girlfriends at a party that our mutual friends were at. Drunkenly having sex was something the ISTP thought was one of the worst possible things to happen while drunk. He had to have known that he wasn't only going to hurt me but all of his friends by doing such a thing. What causes an ISTP to change his values? Do ISTPs often put up facades for those who they like in order to attract them?

So this is where the situation stands now. He regrets the drunken hook up and will never mention it again although I'm sure it'll be a joke among our friends for some time. Despite this, I still feel strongly for the ISTP. He's changed a lot during these past few months, taking on many qualities I don't approve of, but I can't help but hope the old him is somewhere in there.

However, I can keep these feelings in. Should I still agree to the FWB relationship? Should I even keep the friendship? What signs should I look for that he could possibly want more and is just treading slowly for now?

To begin with, I think most ISTPs (well male ones) like having a friends w/ benefits relationship. It's like you can be friends, do things together, have sex and with no emotional commitment!

Also, yes ISTP can change their minds very quickly. An ISTP may be interested in something today, and can totally not care about it tomorrow. It's part of our personality, we're just random. Ask us something we say "no", ask us again in like 15 minutes and it's not unusual for us to say "yes". We like to do things when we want and how we want.

Do ISTPs often put up facades for those who they like in order to attract them?

No. One thing we strongly believe in this everyone should be treated equally and with respect regardless of who they are. Putting on a facade goes against this.

However, I can keep these feelings in. Should I still agree to the FWB relationship? Should I even keep the friendship? What signs should I look for that he could possibly want more and is just treading slowly for now?

This is entirely up to you. I will say this - an ISTP friendship is invaluable once we've accepted you. Once you become one of us "or brothers or w/e", you can count on us to back you up in any situation, whereas your other friends may desert you.

 

[Domino]

To be brief, you're getting jerked around, sweetie. You don't need to put up with that. He doesn't sound mature enough for a "relationship". Time to find another guy.

Believe me. I've been there. It's not worth it.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Agreed. He's a confused, manipulative asshole. At least at this time in his life.

 

[toast]

However, I can keep these feelings in. Should I still agree to the FWB relationship? Should I even keep the friendship? What signs should I look for that he could possibly want more and is just treading slowly for now?

I've been in a very similar situation with an ISTP...
No on the FWB. You already know you can't do that without getting hurt. Once you already have feelings its an ENFJ no-no for sure. Is he young? From what I've seen ISTPs tread very slowly in comparison to an ENFJs way of developing a relationship. As in, I don't think he even has any thoughts ever on 'developing a relationship'. He'll probably just let it develop on its own, in its own time, in the background. If I were you I'd cut the sex, first & foremost... tell him you're interested but in a "real" relationship, then when he denies you (which he most likely will when you put him on the spot like that), get away from him for a good long while to clear your head of all that emotional chaos & then maybe start a friendship with him & earn his trust through just being there (if you can handle it without pining). In time something may develop. If it does or doesn't, given what you've told us, I'm pretty sure its the only way to keep your head. Trust me when I say an ENFJ can wreak havoc on their own inner world when trying to 'navigate' around those ISTP walls & their opening / slamming doors.

 

[sLiPpY]

Reading through, looks to me like the ISTP dude has been perfectly straight up. My advice to the ENFJ would be to stop self-inflicting drama and agony.

 

[Chuckums]

Oh great, another "ISTP Guy Sucks" thread!uch: We are some serious jerks!

But hey, if you back off, just be a good person to him and let him see what you are really all about, he will pursue if he really wants you-but please, set boundaries that are comfortable for you!

However, to me, things don't look good with this guy. Lots of issues have been addressed, but his "What if I changed my mind?" comment is just plain "stringing" (hence, MDP2525s "manipulative asshole" comment)- We know what we are thinking at the time, although it may change later and I will address that.

He just does some chick because he's drunk??? C'mon man!-not good for the future.


Rainne made a great post, so I will reinforce it some so that you might take note of it and better understand how a healthy ISTP thinks. Of course, there will be deviations due to past experiences and enneagram type, but there is some really good insight here.

To begin with, I think most ISTPs (well male ones) like having a friends w/ benefits relationship. It's like you can be friends, do things together, have sex and with no emotional commitment!

This was a nice thought, but personally, it never worked for me. Girls too often ended up with some kind of weird fatal attraction for me (no, I'm not bragging-just telling it like it is) and when it comes right down to it, I could not stand hurting girls emotionally.

Also, yes ISTP can change their minds very quickly. An ISTP may be interested in something today, and can totally not care about it tomorrow. It's part of our personality, we're just random. Ask us something we say "no", ask us again in like 15 minutes and it's not unusual for us to say "yes". We like to do things when we want and how we want.

True. The answer may change due to logical analysis that occurs later on.

No. One thing we strongly believe in this everyone should be treated equally and with respect regardless of who they are. Putting on a facade goes against this.

So true. But we are usually very superficial to mere acquaintances. This is not a facade, it is omission. A defensive measure due to us really not wanting just anyone to truly know us.

..........an ISTP friendship is invaluable once we've accepted you. Once you become one of us "or brothers or w/e", you can count on us to back you up in any situation, whereas your other friends may desert you.

Ha Ha! YES!-A textbook answer! Many of us think it is a pleasure for people to know us and be our friends if we consider ourselves to be good, honest and trustworthy people along with our other pleasant strengths. Most people don't fit that description, so we tend to look at ourselves as valuable friends! Big ego? Call it what you want, but a healthy ISTP is a very loyal friend that will always be willing to help you; even at great inconvenience or even the risk of serious bodily harm.


Good Luck with this, uh, guy.

 

[lalangela]

Everything you guys have said so far makes sense. For my own good, I am staying away from a FWB relationship.

Yes, we're both young and in college. I'm sure this has some affect on it too.

I forgot to add that when I saw him and the girl hooking up in front of all our friends, I took a drink and chucked it at him. He was covered in beer for the rest of the night but he could have cared less because he was just that wasted.

He doesn't show much guilt for what he did with his friend's ex. His plan was to just let it blow over during spring break. Since him and his friend are not on speaking terms, I had to play mediator for both of them last night. Oddly, he was the one to initiate conversation and acted as if the situation had no effect on me even though the beer throwing is an obvious indicator that it did. I played along and we joked about everything that happened that last night. It was the first open conversation we have had in months, and he was more trusting than usual. He said that he was not particularly happy with what happened but it was better than the usual getting trashed and passing out. What struck me was him saying "sex is just way better when it's with someone you actually care about." because he also claimed that "everyone needs to get laid once in a while."

He doesn't have any close girl friends. I don't think he's used to it. I'm not sure if it's a good idea for me to take on such a role with hidden feelings.

 

[Windigo]

I have a wonderful relationship with an ISTP guy and I am cringing just reading your post.

First of all ISTPs don't respond well to demands much less emotionally tinged ones. I had to learn to let my ISTP guy know when I was upset and then calmly walk away and let him come back to me with his answer be it in 3 minutes or 3 days. Whenever I demand an answer, we both usually regret the outcome.

ISTPs are painfully honest as well and that is why in his gut punch honest way he's telling you the truth--that he thinks you're interesting/cute enough to hook up with but he's not sure he could handle your intensity or demands for structure on a day to day basis.

ISTPs ARE brutally honest and most ENFJs I know shrivel under that sort of relationship. ENFJs are a tender nurturing lot that need someone who will encourage their self doubt and ease their tendency toward drama with a warmth and exuberance that ISTPs are not comfortable displaying. Could it work out between you? Of course if you both were willing to reassess the "right" way to handle a relationship and find some compromise.

Most ISTPs are certain they could get just about any girl they want (after all there's something deliciously intriguing about the aloof guy who decides to crack open his confident exterior and show you that there's something sweet and gooey on the inside). So they usually like to play the field a while and they are VERY careful about giving away their heart too quickly.

The older an ISTP gets the more they know what they are and are not looking for in life. Part of being egalitarian means they are willing to try dating a wide variety of people before they know what kind of person will truly make them happy.

My ISTP dated a lot when he was younger but got involved in a lot of crazy "fatal attraction" situations. Now he is amazingly loyal because he values me as a person. And he knows he can trust me to be strong for him when he needs to take a break and be independent for a while (since I'm VERY independent with my own interests as well).

If you continue this relationship I see you questioning your self worth more and more
and him becoming more annoyed with your demands for him to define the relationship according to your parameters. ISTPs ABHOR feeling pushed or controlled. They are the one who needs to be set free and will come back to you if they love you.

I was so confused by my ISTPs hot/cold approach that I actually avoided contact with him for a year (with no designs toward anything) we met up at a party and had a heated argument about the difference between men and women. Over the next four months we began to do things together while he continued to date a bevy of women.

Then came the fateful day when he went on a pre-arranged camping date with a group of friends who happened to invite a lady who was interested in him. I thought well, this is where I'll be able to tell if he likes me or not. If he comes home late Sunday--we're just friends, If he comes home in the afternoon there's some potential, if he comes home early Sunday morning he likes me . . . I didn't spend the weekend fretting. I went out with friends and had a grand time. He came home 9am on Sunday picking me up on his way home and proposed to me in the garage as soon as we got to his house. LOL! We were married 4 months later. His poor parents were like . . . you're going to marry who? We've never even heard of her before!

 

[lalangela]

I've learned that I can't be demanding with him. I think part of the reason why our conversation last night was so open is because I resisted questioning him or pointing out his contradictions and instead said "okay." He took notice of this, complemented me, and then continued venting. That felt great.

 

[sLiPpY]

"I was so confused by my ISTPs hot/cold approach that I actually avoided contact with him for a year (with no designs toward anything) we met up at a party and had a heated argument about the difference between men and women. Over the next four months we began to do things together while he continued to date a bevy of women."

haha! Windigo you passed the ISTP trial by fire!

 

[Intricate Mystic]

Then came the fateful day when he went on a pre-arranged camping date with a group of friends who happened to invite a lady who was interested in him. I thought well, this is where I'll be able to tell if he likes me or not. If he comes home late Sunday--we're just friends, If he comes home in the afternoon there's some potential, if he comes home early Sunday morning he likes me . . . I didn't spend the weekend fretting. I went out with friends and had a grand time. He came home 9am on Sunday picking me up on his way home and proposed to me in the garage as soon as we got to his house. LOL! We were married 4 months later. His poor parents were like . . . you're going to marry who? We've never even heard of her before!

Wow. So you were in a situation in which you didn't know if his feelings for you were: 1) just friends, 2) there's some potential, 3) he likes me, and then he came back and proposed to you?!!! Lord have mercy. ISTPs are quite a challenge, aren't they?!

 

[Amargith]

Yeah..and they claim to be very much forward and logical for some reason

 

[toast]

Yeah..and they claim to be very much forward and logical for some reason

Yeah, I'm still trying to understand why subtleties fail on them when they are NOT at all direct about what they want from other people in relationships. The ISTPs I know will occasionally tell me I'm too subtle/passive about what I want from them but they will also turn around & get upset with me when they feel ignored or like I'm clueless to their wants. (Its like they just feel they want something 'sorta' & they assume you 'sorta' get it.)

I'm closest to thinking its just that 'live in the present' narrow window of reference... as in, they want what they want when its right in front of them or has popped into their mind. But what I don't get is how can an ISTP be so good suppressing desires & then act oblivious when you point out that you had no idea they wanted something. (Like the situation where the ISTP thinks there is a partnership just because they are 'hangin out' a lot with the other person... and that person is like: 'wtf? why didn't you say something or show me something if you wanted to be w me like that?')

I've seen this about two times, experienced it once for myself & heard about it on the forum about 3 times. With most of these, the ISTP got jealous or hurt out of nowhere because they thought the other person crossed a boundary (like sleeping with someone else) that the ISTP thought was established. And it was actual surprise at the 'obliviousness' of the other partner, like "what do you mean, 'we aren't together?'" The ISTP just sort of assumed that there was some exclusivity there without any affirmation.

Is it an Fe thing? Like they just are going with it & being too internal with their feelings until something provokes them enough (like jealousy, anxiety) to express them? Is it more likely with young or insecure/unhealthy ISTPs where Fe is really ignored? I'm likely seeing it through some ENFJ distortion.

So true. But we are usually very superficial to mere acquaintances. This is not a facade, it is omission. A defensive measure due to us really not wanting just anyone to truly know us.

And on this, to the OP... To an ENFJ, once you've 'done' it, (you either really don't like the guy - which is rare) or you kind of 'make friends' just by the act. To us, it establishes something, even if its not too deep, you'd never let yourself believe it was superficial or meaningless. I'm pretty sure an ISTP, sex doesn't 'make' anything. You are an acquaintance until he decides you are not, and there isn't much you can do about it. Sleeping with him is not likely to get you closer to him, just make you feel crazier & crazier as you try harder & harder to "matter."

 

[Windigo]

haha! Windigo you passed the ISTP trial by fire!

And it's been a warm, cozy fire ever since.

 

[Windigo]

Wow. So you were in a situation in which you didn't know if his feelings for you were: 1) just friends, 2) there's some potential, 3) he likes me, and then he came back and proposed to you?!!! Lord have mercy. ISTPs are quite a challenge, aren't they?!

Yes, they are endearingly frustrating and getting to know them is a lifetime adventure. They are an dizzying mix of coolness/passion, non-commitment/ loyalty, silliness/reserve. . . . But I love my ISTPs strength, integrity and confident optimism. We make a great team now that I have learned not to push him he actually enjoys making the effort to please me in non verbal ways (unexpected flowers, a surprise dinner he's made when I'm busy, building a patio barbeque, ect.) I also appreciate he is the ONE man who is entirely comfortable with me being exactly who I am and not wanting to change me. He is completely unaffected by my bluntness/pushiness/independence/knowledge base and he's not afraid to tell me when I'm being a pill.

In return we have a wonderfully warm/passionate/silly relationship and people often remark that we still act like newly weds even after 8 years.

ISTPs are wonderful life partners, but not for the emotionally needy or faint of heart.

 

[toast]

^ wish I was an ENTJ...

 

[miss fortune]

it sounds to me like he's immature, which isn't particularly type related, it's just manifested differently from type to type occasionally (not always)

as an STP who's been involved with an ENFJ before, I can say that you guys can be CONFUSING with your hurricane of emotions... it doesn't always seem like you're being direct when you speak (not the same way of conveying things!) and it was always a toss up as to whether what I said would be accepted or considered bitchy and then overreacted to... if he says that he's just interested in your body you should beleive that he just wants a friends with benefits relationship at the moment... and it's not like he hooked up with that chick when NOT wasted! (that would be an extra bad sign!)

unless you think you can put your feelings on hold and just have sex though, I'd suggest shopping elsewhere for a man... a more MATURE man

 

[countrygirl]

Yes, they are endearingly frustrating and getting to know them is a lifetime adventure. They are an dizzying mix of coolness/passion, non-commitment/ loyalty, silliness/reserve. . . . But I love my ISTPs strength, integrity and confident optimism. We make a great team now that I have learned not to push him he actually enjoys making the effort to please me in non verbal ways (unexpected flowers, a surprise dinner he's made when I'm busy, building a patio barbeque, ect.) I also appreciate he is the ONE man who is entirely comfortable with me being exactly who I am and not wanting to change me. He is completely unaffected by my bluntness/pushiness/independence/knowledge base and he's not afraid to tell me when I'm being a pill.
In return we have a wonderfully warm/passionate/silly relationship and people often remark that we still act like newly weds even after 8 years.

ISTPs are wonderful life partners, but not for the emotionally needy or faint of heart.

One of the reasons why I love my ISTP husband.