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[SP] SP's and Walls of Texts

Forever

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I do struggle, but I have to learn to deal with the problem.

I see. While you're humble and that's admirable. I'd hate to see you suffer as you're another fellow human being and you don't need to be open and self critical of your faults and yes while you're somewhat safe behind the walls of the Internet, still. Words can still hurt.
 

cascadeco

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I am ok with walls of text. I may gloss over parts, or lack patience if I don't really place value in what the writer does, but that says more about me than they. But generally I'm ok with longer posts, as sometimes it takes a long post to really get everything out one is wanting to articulate. I've definitely done longer posts myself, on occasion, though on my end I try to be as succinct as possible.

Edit: I am reading Proust right now. That should say something about my ability to read walls of text. :laugh: ;)
 

Kheledon

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[MENTION=26269]Kheledon[/MENTION] I don't think you should compare and contrast you and your wife where you're positive and [MENTION=26289]Silent[/MENTION] is struggling or at least balance it out. :)

Thank you for your well-intentioned advice on this subject.

We all have our strengths and weaknesses. I can assure you that [MENTION=26289]Silent[/MENTION] is emotionally stronger than I am. And, like most ISFPs, she is charming, lovable, and always manages to evoke sympathy from others. I lack that power. I get the shaft (and the criticism).
 

Forever

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Thank you for your well-intentioned advice on this subject.

We all have our strengths and weaknesses. I can assure you that [MENTION=26289]Silent[/MENTION] is emotionally stronger than I am. And, like most ISFPs, she is charming, lovable, and always manages to evoke sympathy from others. I lack that power. I get the shaft (and the criticism).

Alright then. I can't say for because I don't know either of you in person. Fi might not show outwardly but it is very real. It's not personal either, I just believe that we don't have to be so open, I used to have that philosophy that being the most open brings the most joy, it turns out more often then not, it's best to leave some details out.
 

magpie

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I'll read long walls of text as long as there are spaces between paragraphs. If there aren't my eyes just sort of glaze over and I give up. So formatting is important if you want people to read your stuff.
 

Kheledon

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Alright then. I can't say for because I don't know either of you in person. Fi might not show outwardly but it is very real. It's not personal either, I just believe that we don't have to be so open, I used to have that philosophy that being the most open brings the most joy, it turns out more often then not, it's best to leave some details out.

I admit that it's a fault of mine. I am far too open and expressive. I know this. I'd be better off hiding more, but I loathe hiding, and I am suspicious of those who hide who and what they are.

I must also add (and I need to comment on another post regarding this topic) that I think Socionics is right on this topic whereas most M/B theorists are wrong. [MENTION=26289]Silent[/MENTION] is not Fi dominant. She's Si dominant (like all ISFPs, she seeks comfort, first and foremost), and her secondary function is Fe (making her ego block SiFe). Her Fe is stronger than mine, and that's why she is both immune to my Fe and utterly charming to nearly everyone she encounters. She uses Fe to create harmony (the other, primary goal of an ISFP), and she does so both masterfully and instinctually. Disharmony causes her physical pain (i.e. it hits her Si), so she uses Fe to adjust the emotional atmosphere of any environment that causes her discomfort. She also uses Fe simply to get people to do whatever it is she wants them to do at a given moment in time. She's very effective with it--much moreso than I. She can certainly generate sympathy better than I can.

In no way is she an Fi dom. Were she an ISFJ, she would be an Fi dom, but because she's an ISFP, it's her input function (S) that is dominant. Were she a J, her judging function (F) would be dominant.
 

cascadeco

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I admit that it's a fault of mine. I am far too open and expressive. I know this. I'd be better off hiding more, but I loathe hiding, and I am suspicious of those who hide who and what they are.

I must also add (and I need to comment on another post regarding this topic) that I think Socionics is right on this topic whereas most M/B theorists are wrong. [MENTION=26289]Silent[/MENTION] is not Fi dominant. She's Si dominant (like all ISFPs, she seeks comfort, first and foremost), and her secondary function is Fe (making her ego block SiFe). Her Fe is stronger than mine, and that's why she is both immune to my Fe and utterly charming to nearly everyone she encounters. She uses Fe to create harmony (the other, primary goal of an ISFP), and she does so both masterfully and instinctually. Disharmony causes her physical pain (i.e. it hits her Si), so she uses Fe to adjust the emotional atmosphere of any environment that causes her discomfort. She also uses Fe simply to get people to do whatever it is she wants them to do at a given moment in time. She's very effective with it--much moreso than I.

In no way is she an Fi dom.

So she's not an ISFP /SP in mbti terms, only in socionics terms, basically.
 

Kheledon

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So she's not an ISFP /SP in mbti terms, only in socionics terms, basically.

To be honest, I am just not sure. She's sp/sx in terms of her instinctual stack. That's pretty certain. As for how she'd translate into MBTI, I am not sure, but she's an ISFP, and that irrational p, according to Socionics, means her irrational input function (either N or S) will be dominant. Those of us who are Js are dominated by our rational, judging function. Thus, for me, as an ENFJ, I am Fe dominant, with Ni secondary, and these two functions work together (always) as my ego (FeNi). I am pretty certain that [MENTION=26289]Silent[/MENTION] has an SiFe ego. Her "role function" (where she goes under stress) is Ni, and her PoLR is Te (she hates to look outside of herself to troubleshoot and find solutions to problems). That's how her functions stack according to Socionics Model A, in any event.

That makes her an SEI-Si (Hedonist). The following description could not be more accurate:

Sensory Ethical Introvert SEI, ISFp (Si,Fe)

Description by V. Meged and A. Ovcharov

Sensory subtype Si-ISFp (Si-SEI)

Appearance: Calm and soft person in interaction. With his presence often pacifies others. Industrious, practical, does everything with a sense of taste. Often engages in fine arts as a hobby. Well-wishing, tactful, unobtrusive. Tries to sympathize, to assist, to provide advice. Loves rest and comfort. Likes talking about his perceptions and sensations. Attentively questions his conversation partner in regard to his or her affairs. Slightly delayed in his behavior and speech, sometimes stretching out words and with difficulty forming clear thoughts. Even if he speaks fast, he doesn't hurry to end the conversation. Able to speak about the same subject with erudition, comprehensively and at great length. Smiles with confidence, nods her or his head as a sign of support. Movements are smooth, stylish, somewhat slow; may appear to waddle and "walk like a duck". Undemonstrative, but clothes and accessories nevertheless attract attention.

Character: Attentive and caring towards other people, considerate of their convenience. Aware of harmony in communication. Inquisitive, collects various information and shares it with others. Critically evaluates what he hears. Does not like exaggeration, hype - needs facts and justifications. He enjoys when someone argues with him a little, enlivening the conversation, but poorly tolerates people who are aggressive and avoids serious quarrels. In business matters prefers to negotiate at an informal level. Knows how to patiently persuade a person to take on a beneficial or profitable project, but doesn't always notice which undertakings are actually promising. Thus, he can be hesitant in starting on new projects, afraid of making mistakes and feeling at fault. Values his peace and knows how to move away from any sources of irritation.

Tries under any circumstances to not lose his sense of measure. Keeps neutral in debates. Amiable, will try to find a method to find rapport with most. Even when he has to insist on and defend his own opinions, he is able to maintain good relations. Often acts as a peacekeeper, trying to convince other people to agree to a compromise and come to mutual accord. Doesn't find it easy to deny a person's request, to push someone away, thus is often careful at the beginning of a conversation, and dislikes people who are "sticky" and intrusive. With difficulty determines what a person is capable of and what to expect from him, though he appreciates talented and original individuals. Usually does not criticize anyone and dislikes it when other people are criticized in his presence. May be impatient as a listener. Does not like to compete or to coerce others into doing things against their own will. Has difficulties asserting and defending the interest of his business matters if he is unable to find agreement on an informal level.

Able to describe events in great detail. Has good memory for sensations: sounds, colors, and smells. Loves nature and good aesthetics in any manifestation. Gravitates towards pleasant experiences. Dresses tastefully. Has an inclination for following the latest styles. Loves comfort and aesthetics, various original decorations. Industrious, loves doing something with his hands. Everything that he takes up does with a sense of taste investing his heart and soul. Does not like commitments and giving promises, since he is afraid that he won't be able to fulfill them. On some he can make an impression of a passive and inert person, since he doesn't see the point in empty hassle and pointless expenditure of efforts. Due to this, often acquires the reputation of a talented slouch, who takes up a philosophical, contemplative stance in life. Strives for good quality of life.

Warm, gentle, charming, seeks to be in accord and harmony with his environment. Pays attention to manners and behavior of others and evaluates them in his mind. Tries not to burden others with his requests, asks for help only in extreme cases. Generally, will not attempt to draw attention to himself when he feels that nobody is interested in him. Dislikes talking about his failures. By nature private, sensitive, and easily wounded. Turns for help only to people who are close to him and who have proven themselves. Hospitable, likes when food is cooked deliciously and served with appeal. If he is to receive important guests or visitors, spends a lot of time and effort on such occasions, and thus rarely agrees to such events.

(Si-SEI) Description by Victor Gulenko
This is an appreciator of well-being, wealth and savoir vivre. Possess a good aesthetic taste, which can show in his appearance, in the setup of his interior, in activities of applied nature, such as artist who depicts landscapes and still life. A hedonist, enjoys providing pleasure to both himself and to other people, appreciates convenience. Looks after his looks.

Socionics - the16types.info - Socionics Type Subtype Descriptions by V. Meged, A. Ovcharov, and V. Gulenko

I'd be interested to know what would be different from an M/B perspective.
 

Yama

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[MENTION=26269]Kheledon[/MENTION] I'm an ISFp (SEI) in socionics and ISFJ in MBTI, because the j/p switch works for me, but not all people follow the j/p switch (or even necessarily have any correlation between their MBTI and sociotype at all). [MENTION=24479]themightyfetus[/MENTION] also types SEI/IsFj. Can't think of any others off the top of my head.

There are also members (ex: [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION]) whose sociotype and MBTI are completely different. They are after all separate systems, though within the same root system, so to speak.

Also, if you are strictly referring to socionics, it's best to leave the j/p uncapitalized (ex. ISFp, ENFj) in order to make it easier for your readers to know you are referencing socionics rather than MBTI (seeing as one's sociotype and MBTI may differ).
 

cascadeco

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To be honest, I am just not sure. She's sp/sx in terms of her instinctual stack. That's pretty certain. As for how she'd translate into MBTI, I am not sure, but she's an ISFP, and that irrational p, according to Socionics, means her irrational input function (either N or S) will be dominant. Those of us who are Js are dominated by our rational, judging function. Thus, for me, as an ENFJ, I am Fe dominant, with Ni secondary, and these two functions work together (always) as my ego (FeNi). I am pretty certain that [MENTION=26289]Silent[/MENTION] has an SiFe ego. Her "role function" (where she goes under stress) is Ni, and her PoLR is Te (she hates to look outside of herself to troubleshoot and find solutions to problems). That's how her functions stack according to Socionics Model A, in any event.



I'd be interested to know what would be different from an M/B perspective.

Well right, socionics defines things differently, thus ISFp is perceiving dominant, dom Si as you say. I don't think you're citing anything inaccurate in terms of socionics, and that's cool that she fits SEI /ISFp /SiFe in socionics perfectly.

However ISFP in mbti terms, if we bring cognitive functions into it, is Fi Se Ni Te -- basically the ISFj socionics function stacking. So on this forum at least, it's going to be very confusing to people if you're referring to 'isfp' but are not clear you're speaking of socionics isfp.

Fwiw from what I've seen the two systems are not directly translatable and they're often giving different descriptions of things, functions aren't described in exactly the same way between systems. So I've seen examples of people who type differently in each system - with different cognitive functions even.
 

á´…eparted

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There are also members (ex: [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION]) whose sociotype and MBTI are completely different. They are after all separate systems, though within the same root system, so to speak.

I should clarify slightly though, that SLE does fit me best in socionics, it doesn't mean that EIE doesn't fit some. It does, it's just that SLE is more accurate and fill essential holes and addresses contradictory traits that MBTI misses, and EIE misses. In other ways SLE is off the mark. I don't have a fully solid fit in socionics. MBTI is a good fit. Enneagram is a spot on fit. In other words my MBTI/socio pairing isn't entirely obvious.
 

Kheledon

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[MENTION=26269]Kheledon[/MENTION]Also, if you are strictly referring to socionics, it's best to leave the j/p uncapitalized (ex. ISFp, ENFj) in order to make it easier for your readers to know you are referencing socionics rather than MBTI (seeing as one's sociotype and MBTI may differ).

Absolutely. Socionics uses lower case letters for the j/p axis to accentuate them, not minimize them. That axis, according to Socionics theorists, is essential. So, I'm an ENFj and [MENTION=26289]Silent[/MENTION] is an ISFp (in Socionics terms). She's essentially irrational (p). I'm essentially rational (j). My j makes my judging function (F) dominant. Her p makes her irrational (S) function dominant. Frankly, I am only vaguely familiar with "the j/p switch" issue. It seems to me that one is either rational (F or T dominant) or irrational (S or N dominant). All I can tell you is that I consistently type as ENFJ in both M/B tests and Socionics tests, and I'm quite certain that I'm an EIE-Fe. However this might translate into M/B, [MENTION=26289]Silent[/MENTION] is an SEI-Si. And she's not rational (so it's hard for me to imagine a "j" in her type). She's a wing it, act-on-instinct, fly-by-the-seat-of-her-pants, changeable, malleable, flexible, and impulsive person (i.e. a "p" and not a "j").

:shrug:

Thanks for the response.
 

cascadeco

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Absolutely. Socionics uses lower case letters for the j/p axis to accentuate them, not minimize them. That axis, according to Socionics theorists, is essential. So, I'm an ENFj and [MENTION=26289]Silent[/MENTION] is an ISFp (in Socionics terms). She's essentially irrational (p). I'm essentially rational (j). My j makes my judging function (F) dominant. Her p makes her irrational (S) function dominant. Frankly, I am only vaguely familiar with "the j/p switch" issue. It seems to me that one is either rational (F or T dominant) or irrational (S or N dominant). All I can tell you is that I consistently type as ENFJ in both M/B tests and Socionics tests, and I'm quite certain that I'm an EIE-Fe. However this might translate into M/B, [MENTION=26289]Silent[/MENTION] is an SEI-Si. And she's not rational (so it's hard for me to imagine a "j" in her type). She's a wing it, act-on-instinct, fly-by-the-seat-of-her-pants, changeable, malleable, flexible, and impulsive person (i.e. a "p" and not a "j").

:shrug:

Thanks for the response.

This is why the systems don't align and people don't type the same all of the time between the two. In mbti, the perceiving introverts are behaviorally not at all winging it and flying by the seat of their pants. An ISTJ (Si dom in mbti!) in mbti is decidedly NOT one who appears to 'wing it'. All of the IxxJ's in mbti- Ni and Si doms - are externally very deliberate and not super adaptable in a spontaneous and instantaneous way, though internally are 'loose' and 'flexy'.

Your example alone, to me, illustrates how different the systems are constructed.
 

ceecee

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Absolutely. Socionics uses lower case letters for the j/p axis to accentuate them, not minimize them. That axis, according to Socionics theorists, is essential. So, I'm an ENFj and [MENTION=26289]Silent[/MENTION] is an ISFp (in Socionics terms). She's essentially irrational (p). I'm essentially rational (j). My j makes my judging function (F) dominant. Her p makes her irrational (S) function dominant. Frankly, I am only vaguely familiar with "the j/p switch" issue. It seems to me that one is either rational (F or T dominant) or irrational (S or N dominant). All I can tell you is that I consistently type as ENFJ in both M/B tests and Socionics tests, and I'm quite certain that I'm an EIE-Fe. However this might translate into M/B, [MENTION=26289]Silent[/MENTION] is an SEI-Si. And she's not rational (so it's hard for me to imagine a "j" in her type). She's a wing it, act-on-instinct, fly-by-the-seat-of-her-pants, changeable, malleable, flexible, and impulsive person (i.e. a "p" and not a "j").

:shrug:

Thanks for the response.

I don't know that, I haven't looked into Socionics. What she is getting at it that, for example, in your sig line, you have eNFj as your MBTI type. But eNFj is a Socionics thing, not a MBTI thing and it's confusing to people who don't know about the two different systems.
 

Kheledon

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This is why the systems don't align and people don't type the same all of the time between the two. In mbti, the perceiving introverts are behaviorally not at all winging it and flying by the seat of their pants. An ISTJ (Si dom in mbti!) in mbti is decidedly NOT one who appears to 'wing it'. All of the IxxJ's in mbti- Ni and Si doms - are externally very deliberate and not super adaptable in a spontaneous and instantaneous way, though internally are 'loose' and 'flexy'.

Your example alone, to me, illustrates how different the systems are constructed.

Well, sure. And this is why I think Socionics has "better refined" the system for which Jung built the the theoretical foundation. All "j"s in Socionics are rational, deliberate, goal-oriented, generally dutiful, i.e. the kind of person who could (more naturally and comfortably) make the trains run on time. Such a person, however, could not be Si or Ni or Se or Ne dom in Socionics. If you're a "j" you're F or T dom. If you're "p" you're an S or N dom.

Thus, I'm Fe dom because I am a j, but that Fe is always backed up by and works in conjunction with my secondary and irrational Ni. [MENTION=26289]Silent[/MENTION] is Si dom because she's a p, but her Si is always backed up by and works in conjunction with her rational Fe. I think this model just works better (for me, at least).
 

Kheledon

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I don't know that, I haven't looked into Socionics. What she is getting at it that, for example, in your sig line, you have eNFj as your MBTI type. But eNFj is a Socionics thing, not a MBTI thing and it's confusing to people who don't know about the two different systems.

Gotcha. I'll change that to eliminate some confusion. :cheers:
 

Kheledon

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I should clarify slightly though, that SLE does fit me best in socionics, it doesn't mean that EIE doesn't fit some. It does, it's just that SLE is more accurate and fill essential holes and addresses contradictory traits that MBTI misses, and EIE misses. In other ways SLE is off the mark. I don't have a fully solid fit in socionics. MBTI is a good fit. Enneagram is a spot on fit. In other words my MBTI/socio pairing isn't entirely obvious.

That's really interesting, and I have no explanation for it. An SLE is an ESTp in Socionics. I wonder how you'd score on the multiple intelligence test found here: Compare Basic and Pro Personality Tests (The free one is on the left if you're interested.)

Your scores on that test might help clarify things. :shrug:
 

cascadeco

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Well, sure. And this is why I think Socionics has "better refined" the system for which Jung built the the theoretical foundation. All "j"s in Socionics are rational, deliberate, goal-oriented, generally dutiful, i.e. the kind of person who could (more naturally and comfortably) make the trains run on time. Such a person, however, could not be Si or Ni or Se or Ne dom in Socionics. If you're a "j" you're F or T dom. If you're "p" you're an S or N dom.

Thus, I'm Fe dom because I am a j, but that Fe is always backed up by and works in conjunction with my secondary and irrational Ni. [MENTION=26289]Silent[/MENTION] is Si dom because she's a p, but her Si is always backed up by and works in conjunction with her rational Fe. I think this model just works better (for me, at least).

Yeah, my personal opinion is that all of these personality systems are just that - systems trying to account for all possible personalities. I think that as such, some people may readily and strongly identify with a socionics type description and not mbti, or vice versa. And some may not identify with anything strongly, really.

But yeah, socionics emphasizes traits of the introverts in a pretty different way than mbti does. I also get the impression socionics leans a lot more heavily on behaviors to define a type; someone really well versed in socionics would need to confirm or deny that though - it's just something that seems to me to be more used in descriptions -- vs actual cognition.
 

á´…eparted

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That's really interesting, and I have no explanation for it. An SLE is an ESTp in Socionics. I wonder how you'd score on the multiple intelligence test found here: Compare Basic and Pro Personality Tests (The free one is on the left if you're interested.)

Your scores on that test might help clarify things. :shrug:

I don't think intelligence types is going to play much of a role towards personality types, but nevertheless this is what I got:



The explaination in a broad sense is simple: MBTI and Socionics are totally different theories, and it deceptively looks like there is a lot of overlap. The the largest overlap is using the same labels and names for the cognitive functions and letters. I usually refer to socionics types by their three letter codes. It keeps them separate more. The individual definitions of the functions simply aren't the same. They are quite different and only appear the same on the surface.

For who I am as a person, the differences are as such that I am an ENFJ and SLE. In socionics I just don't really connect with :Fe:. I mean, I kinda do on the surface, but when it gets into the details it doesn't quite explain me. It's too scattered and too lacking of personal control, and waaaaaay to overtly manipulative (even though it's done covertly). With :Ni: it's even less. I don't relate to it very much and does not explain my thought processes, information gathering, or behavior. If I were to consider :Si: it's absolutely zero overlap. I know I am Beta, that is 100% clear, and I am very extroverted. This leaves SLE. On the surface, it doesn't seem like me, but when I get into it the motivations and behaviors of :Se: really do fit me better than all the other socionicsfunctions. Is it a perfect fit? Nope. In socionics, there is no such thing as a perfect fit. Enneagram is the only thing that comes close to perfect. Then there is :Ti: which fits me very well, but is not my first function, but as a secondary position it explains my thoughts motivations and behaviors really well. So much so I thought I was LSI a while back, but realized it wasn't correct.

In socionics I am simply far too blunt, far too direct, far too driving and ignoring of certain social niceties that I simply can not be EIE despite sharing some connection with it. It does make for an interesting interplay as I am clearly ENFJ in MBTI terms, but I've long been known to have a very oddly contradictory nature that works fluidly. That, and many people who know me will say "you're lawful neutral, but you do have one hell of a chaotic streak at times", and it's very true.

Per the thread itself, as I am an SP in socionics, I do tend to write walls of text. However, I make a point to make them easy to follow walls of text.
 

Dr Mobius

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But yeah, socionics emphasizes traits of the introverts in a pretty different way than mbti does. I also get the impression socionics leans a lot more heavily on behaviors to define a type; someone really well versed in socionics would need to confirm or deny that though - it's just something that seems to me to be more used in descriptions -- vs actual cognition.

Well here is an overly long explanation that I'm pretty sure you did not want



Also this is a thread on MBTI SPs so most of the last two page is off topic, and in a boring rehashed a trillion time way.
 
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