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  1. #51
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21lux View Post
    There are also members (ex: @Hard) whose sociotype and MBTI are completely different. They are after all separate systems, though within the same root system, so to speak.
    I should clarify slightly though, that SLE does fit me best in socionics, it doesn't mean that EIE doesn't fit some. It does, it's just that SLE is more accurate and fill essential holes and addresses contradictory traits that MBTI misses, and EIE misses. In other ways SLE is off the mark. I don't have a fully solid fit in socionics. MBTI is a good fit. Enneagram is a spot on fit. In other words my MBTI/socio pairing isn't entirely obvious.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari

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  2. #52
    Senior Member Kheledon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21lux View Post
    @KheledonAlso, if you are strictly referring to socionics, it's best to leave the j/p uncapitalized (ex. ISFp, ENFj) in order to make it easier for your readers to know you are referencing socionics rather than MBTI (seeing as one's sociotype and MBTI may differ).
    Absolutely. Socionics uses lower case letters for the j/p axis to accentuate them, not minimize them. That axis, according to Socionics theorists, is essential. So, I'm an ENFj and @Silent is an ISFp (in Socionics terms). She's essentially irrational (p). I'm essentially rational (j). My j makes my judging function (F) dominant. Her p makes her irrational (S) function dominant. Frankly, I am only vaguely familiar with "the j/p switch" issue. It seems to me that one is either rational (F or T dominant) or irrational (S or N dominant). All I can tell you is that I consistently type as ENFJ in both M/B tests and Socionics tests, and I'm quite certain that I'm an EIE-Fe. However this might translate into M/B, @Silent is an SEI-Si. And she's not rational (so it's hard for me to imagine a "j" in her type). She's a wing it, act-on-instinct, fly-by-the-seat-of-her-pants, changeable, malleable, flexible, and impulsive person (i.e. a "p" and not a "j").



    Thanks for the response.
    MBTI: ENFJ
    M/B Functional Stack: Dominant--Fe, Auxilliary--Ni, Tertiary--Se, Inferior--Ti
    Ego (Jungian): FeNi
    Socionics: EIE-Fe, Beta
    Socionics Functional Stack: Program--Fe, Creative--Ni, Role--Te, PoLR--Si
    Enneagram Type 1
    Tritype 136
    Big Five: SCOEI - sxO|E|i
    Alignment: Lawful Good
    House: Slytherin (the "ethical teacher" type, i.e. Severus Snape)
    Color Code: Blue (intimacy-driven)
    Soul Type: Educator

    Sentio ergo sum.

  3. #53
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kheledon View Post
    Absolutely. Socionics uses lower case letters for the j/p axis to accentuate them, not minimize them. That axis, according to Socionics theorists, is essential. So, I'm an ENFj and @Silent is an ISFp (in Socionics terms). She's essentially irrational (p). I'm essentially rational (j). My j makes my judging function (F) dominant. Her p makes her irrational (S) function dominant. Frankly, I am only vaguely familiar with "the j/p switch" issue. It seems to me that one is either rational (F or T dominant) or irrational (S or N dominant). All I can tell you is that I consistently type as ENFJ in both M/B tests and Socionics tests, and I'm quite certain that I'm an EIE-Fe. However this might translate into M/B, @Silent is an SEI-Si. And she's not rational (so it's hard for me to imagine a "j" in her type). She's a wing it, act-on-instinct, fly-by-the-seat-of-her-pants, changeable, malleable, flexible, and impulsive person (i.e. a "p" and not a "j").



    Thanks for the response.
    This is why the systems don't align and people don't type the same all of the time between the two. In mbti, the perceiving introverts are behaviorally not at all winging it and flying by the seat of their pants. An ISTJ (Si dom in mbti!) in mbti is decidedly NOT one who appears to 'wing it'. All of the IxxJ's in mbti- Ni and Si doms - are externally very deliberate and not super adaptable in a spontaneous and instantaneous way, though internally are 'loose' and 'flexy'.

    Your example alone, to me, illustrates how different the systems are constructed.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  4. #54
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kheledon View Post
    Absolutely. Socionics uses lower case letters for the j/p axis to accentuate them, not minimize them. That axis, according to Socionics theorists, is essential. So, I'm an ENFj and @Silent is an ISFp (in Socionics terms). She's essentially irrational (p). I'm essentially rational (j). My j makes my judging function (F) dominant. Her p makes her irrational (S) function dominant. Frankly, I am only vaguely familiar with "the j/p switch" issue. It seems to me that one is either rational (F or T dominant) or irrational (S or N dominant). All I can tell you is that I consistently type as ENFJ in both M/B tests and Socionics tests, and I'm quite certain that I'm an EIE-Fe. However this might translate into M/B, @Silent is an SEI-Si. And she's not rational (so it's hard for me to imagine a "j" in her type). She's a wing it, act-on-instinct, fly-by-the-seat-of-her-pants, changeable, malleable, flexible, and impulsive person (i.e. a "p" and not a "j").



    Thanks for the response.
    I don't know that, I haven't looked into Socionics. What she is getting at it that, for example, in your sig line, you have eNFj as your MBTI type. But eNFj is a Socionics thing, not a MBTI thing and it's confusing to people who don't know about the two different systems.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Kheledon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    This is why the systems don't align and people don't type the same all of the time between the two. In mbti, the perceiving introverts are behaviorally not at all winging it and flying by the seat of their pants. An ISTJ (Si dom in mbti!) in mbti is decidedly NOT one who appears to 'wing it'. All of the IxxJ's in mbti- Ni and Si doms - are externally very deliberate and not super adaptable in a spontaneous and instantaneous way, though internally are 'loose' and 'flexy'.

    Your example alone, to me, illustrates how different the systems are constructed.
    Well, sure. And this is why I think Socionics has "better refined" the system for which Jung built the the theoretical foundation. All "j"s in Socionics are rational, deliberate, goal-oriented, generally dutiful, i.e. the kind of person who could (more naturally and comfortably) make the trains run on time. Such a person, however, could not be Si or Ni or Se or Ne dom in Socionics. If you're a "j" you're F or T dom. If you're "p" you're an S or N dom.

    Thus, I'm Fe dom because I am a j, but that Fe is always backed up by and works in conjunction with my secondary and irrational Ni. @Silent is Si dom because she's a p, but her Si is always backed up by and works in conjunction with her rational Fe. I think this model just works better (for me, at least).
    MBTI: ENFJ
    M/B Functional Stack: Dominant--Fe, Auxilliary--Ni, Tertiary--Se, Inferior--Ti
    Ego (Jungian): FeNi
    Socionics: EIE-Fe, Beta
    Socionics Functional Stack: Program--Fe, Creative--Ni, Role--Te, PoLR--Si
    Enneagram Type 1
    Tritype 136
    Big Five: SCOEI - sxO|E|i
    Alignment: Lawful Good
    House: Slytherin (the "ethical teacher" type, i.e. Severus Snape)
    Color Code: Blue (intimacy-driven)
    Soul Type: Educator

    Sentio ergo sum.
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  6. #56
    Senior Member Kheledon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I don't know that, I haven't looked into Socionics. What she is getting at it that, for example, in your sig line, you have eNFj as your MBTI type. But eNFj is a Socionics thing, not a MBTI thing and it's confusing to people who don't know about the two different systems.
    Gotcha. I'll change that to eliminate some confusion.
    MBTI: ENFJ
    M/B Functional Stack: Dominant--Fe, Auxilliary--Ni, Tertiary--Se, Inferior--Ti
    Ego (Jungian): FeNi
    Socionics: EIE-Fe, Beta
    Socionics Functional Stack: Program--Fe, Creative--Ni, Role--Te, PoLR--Si
    Enneagram Type 1
    Tritype 136
    Big Five: SCOEI - sxO|E|i
    Alignment: Lawful Good
    House: Slytherin (the "ethical teacher" type, i.e. Severus Snape)
    Color Code: Blue (intimacy-driven)
    Soul Type: Educator

    Sentio ergo sum.
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  7. #57
    Senior Member Kheledon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I should clarify slightly though, that SLE does fit me best in socionics, it doesn't mean that EIE doesn't fit some. It does, it's just that SLE is more accurate and fill essential holes and addresses contradictory traits that MBTI misses, and EIE misses. In other ways SLE is off the mark. I don't have a fully solid fit in socionics. MBTI is a good fit. Enneagram is a spot on fit. In other words my MBTI/socio pairing isn't entirely obvious.
    That's really interesting, and I have no explanation for it. An SLE is an ESTp in Socionics. I wonder how you'd score on the multiple intelligence test found here: Compare Basic and Pro Personality Tests (The free one is on the left if you're interested.)

    Your scores on that test might help clarify things.
    MBTI: ENFJ
    M/B Functional Stack: Dominant--Fe, Auxilliary--Ni, Tertiary--Se, Inferior--Ti
    Ego (Jungian): FeNi
    Socionics: EIE-Fe, Beta
    Socionics Functional Stack: Program--Fe, Creative--Ni, Role--Te, PoLR--Si
    Enneagram Type 1
    Tritype 136
    Big Five: SCOEI - sxO|E|i
    Alignment: Lawful Good
    House: Slytherin (the "ethical teacher" type, i.e. Severus Snape)
    Color Code: Blue (intimacy-driven)
    Soul Type: Educator

    Sentio ergo sum.
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  8. #58
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kheledon View Post
    Well, sure. And this is why I think Socionics has "better refined" the system for which Jung built the the theoretical foundation. All "j"s in Socionics are rational, deliberate, goal-oriented, generally dutiful, i.e. the kind of person who could (more naturally and comfortably) make the trains run on time. Such a person, however, could not be Si or Ni or Se or Ne dom in Socionics. If you're a "j" you're F or T dom. If you're "p" you're an S or N dom.

    Thus, I'm Fe dom because I am a j, but that Fe is always backed up by and works in conjunction with my secondary and irrational Ni. @Silent is Si dom because she's a p, but her Si is always backed up by and works in conjunction with her rational Fe. I think this model just works better (for me, at least).
    Yeah, my personal opinion is that all of these personality systems are just that - systems trying to account for all possible personalities. I think that as such, some people may readily and strongly identify with a socionics type description and not mbti, or vice versa. And some may not identify with anything strongly, really.

    But yeah, socionics emphasizes traits of the introverts in a pretty different way than mbti does. I also get the impression socionics leans a lot more heavily on behaviors to define a type; someone really well versed in socionics would need to confirm or deny that though - it's just something that seems to me to be more used in descriptions -- vs actual cognition.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  9. #59
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kheledon View Post
    That's really interesting, and I have no explanation for it. An SLE is an ESTp in Socionics. I wonder how you'd score on the multiple intelligence test found here: Compare Basic and Pro Personality Tests (The free one is on the left if you're interested.)

    Your scores on that test might help clarify things.
    I don't think intelligence types is going to play much of a role towards personality types, but nevertheless this is what I got:



    The explaination in a broad sense is simple: MBTI and Socionics are totally different theories, and it deceptively looks like there is a lot of overlap. The the largest overlap is using the same labels and names for the cognitive functions and letters. I usually refer to socionics types by their three letter codes. It keeps them separate more. The individual definitions of the functions simply aren't the same. They are quite different and only appear the same on the surface.

    For who I am as a person, the differences are as such that I am an ENFJ and SLE. In socionics I just don't really connect with . I mean, I kinda do on the surface, but when it gets into the details it doesn't quite explain me. It's too scattered and too lacking of personal control, and waaaaaay to overtly manipulative (even though it's done covertly). With it's even less. I don't relate to it very much and does not explain my thought processes, information gathering, or behavior. If I were to consider it's absolutely zero overlap. I know I am Beta, that is 100% clear, and I am very extroverted. This leaves SLE. On the surface, it doesn't seem like me, but when I get into it the motivations and behaviors of really do fit me better than all the other socionicsfunctions. Is it a perfect fit? Nope. In socionics, there is no such thing as a perfect fit. Enneagram is the only thing that comes close to perfect. Then there is which fits me very well, but is not my first function, but as a secondary position it explains my thoughts motivations and behaviors really well. So much so I thought I was LSI a while back, but realized it wasn't correct.

    In socionics I am simply far too blunt, far too direct, far too driving and ignoring of certain social niceties that I simply can not be EIE despite sharing some connection with it. It does make for an interesting interplay as I am clearly ENFJ in MBTI terms, but I've long been known to have a very oddly contradictory nature that works fluidly. That, and many people who know me will say "you're lawful neutral, but you do have one hell of a chaotic streak at times", and it's very true.

    Per the thread itself, as I am an SP in socionics, I do tend to write walls of text. However, I make a point to make them easy to follow walls of text.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari

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  10. #60
    Chaser of Light Dr Mobius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    But yeah, socionics emphasizes traits of the introverts in a pretty different way than mbti does. I also get the impression socionics leans a lot more heavily on behaviors to define a type; someone really well versed in socionics would need to confirm or deny that though - it's just something that seems to me to be more used in descriptions -- vs actual cognition.
    Well here is an overly long explanation that I'm pretty sure you did not want



    Also this is a thread on MBTI SPs so most of the last two page is off topic, and in a boring rehashed a trillion time way.
    “Brighter, now brighter, pay no mind to those who squint, burn with all your heat.”
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