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  1. #11
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    I am planning to call her in a couple of months about something practical I need to ask her, but I would also like to talk to her about what happened last fall. How should I proceed?
    This sounds so contrived. Why bother? Ignore her and see if she comes crawling back to you, then just go from there with more suitable relationship boundaries. If not, go forward looking for new people. I don't find much long-term good comes from hashing things out, especially relationship things like miscommunication and hurt feelings. I've tried it. It just prolongs the agony and makes things harder.

    That's just me though.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  2. #12
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    It wasn't about business to me at all, but about connection.

    Okay I get that. You must feel pretty deeply about her? Or, would you have this identical reaction with other friends (that you have known as long as her) who would treat you with such disregard?

    I respect her as an individual. Including her in my artwork was all about honouring her.

    And you did! She may comprehend friendship differently than you? Something is off no matter what her typological preferences are.

    I don't think she needs me at all, but I respect her and would appreciate her to do the same and keep her own word.

    You do not believe that all your regard for her is of any value to her? Then her behaviour is understandable. Something in this relationship is fundamentally wrong. I hope that you two may come to an understanding...if not you may have to travel on without her. In any event, why open your self up to the pain and frustration of her neglect?
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

  3. #13
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch63 View Post

    I don't think she needs me at all, but I respect her and would appreciate her to do the same and keep her own word.

    You do not believe that all your regard for her is of any value to her? Then her behaviour is understandable. Something in this relationship is fundamentally wrong. I hope that you two may come to an understanding...if not you may have to travel on without her. In any event, why open your self up to the pain and frustration of her neglect?
    Could you clarify this?
    I don't know if it is of any value to her, but she seemed touched about the portrait I painted of her. She said to me "I was thinking, 'Why? Why would she paint me?'" She sounded pretty emotional about it. Especially that we hadn't been in touch for years when I asked her permission to use her as model.

    Here is the painting if you want to see it:
    Listen by ~KetsiaLessard on deviantART

    I suppose everything would have been very art-oriented with her if she hadn't been so sweet with me. This got me emotionally involved. It is platonic, of course, but her kindness stirs something up in me that makes me care about her beyond just the artwork.

    I think I now get what you mean by "business." I suppose this is the word you used for the idea of artwork. I first read it as business= money, success, etc. I wondered what you meant at first. But yes, my connection with her has always revolved around the artwork. Nothing else, really. Just conversations around it and getting to know each other, etc. But my artwork is an expression of my soul (I'm INFJ) and I pour myself into it. So if someone acts the way she did about it, I see it as personal rejection. She probably doesn't see it that way. She is one of the people who have inspired me, and these people mean a whole lot to me. I tried to explain this in the letter I sent after the incident.

    I might mention that when I saw her last october, she refered to the novel I had written many years ago and said: "I still have it" with a shy smile, and I replied that I was still working on it, and having used it in university as my final project in Creative Writing got me an A. She looked a bit embarrassed and said: "I can't believe I didn't keep in touch with you about it." I didn't answer, but I suppose my eyes said a lot.

  4. #14
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    This sounds so contrived. Why bother? Ignore her and see if she comes crawling back to you, then just go from there with more suitable relationship boundaries. If not, go forward looking for new people. I don't find much long-term good comes from hashing things out, especially relationship things like miscommunication and hurt feelings. I've tried it. It just prolongs the agony and makes things harder.

    That's just me though.

    I guess I just need closure about it. Leaving it open hurts me, I need to talk to her. I will probably be in her area next fall and the practical reason is connected to the whole thing, taking the pictures I have not been able to take because she didn't show up, and it would inevitably lead to talking about the incident. I'll see what she has to say.

    But I understand your point. I see her behaviour as a constant, and I am very much on my guard now. I need closure, but I won't care to pursue a friendship, it would lead to more hurt. She lives far away, anyway.

  5. #15
    Member Sidewinder's Avatar
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    She doesn't really value the relationship the same way that you do. She'll attempt to be friendly in a light, casual sort of way (saying hello), but she doesn't really put a lot of effort into it. She probably notices that you're unhappy, but also feels that if she just ignores that, the conflict will go away (a lot of ISFPs think that way, and I've been guilty of this myself). I think she considers you a casual acquaintance and that she doesn't owe you anything. She's probably forgotten about the promises she made and doesn't like to be reminded of them.

    I don't think backing out of commitments is really ISFP-typical behavior, but I have noticed that we don't put as much stock in old friendships (from school or college) as FJ types do. I also think we prefer to put unpleasant feelings behind us, even if they are not completely resolved. Moving on is an ISFP trait. She's moved on from this, and you're not going to get the resolution you require from her. It's probably better to just move on yourself and forget her, even if that's painful for you.

  6. #16
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    Actually, its more common than you would think. Two of my ISFP friends flake out on me all the time. They enjoy having me as a friends so it isn't intentional. Merely a case of out of sight, out of mind (which, I hate to say, I have noticed in plenty of ISPs). They make promises fully intending to keep them and then the blasted P goes into 'under-drive' and its downhill from there. After a while, I just grew to reduce my expectations of them with regards to deadlines and following through on their word.

    As Ayoits said, don't write. Call. Be controlled; an outburst might make her clam up. That said, dont be so controlled and subtle that she doesnt get the message.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewinder View Post
    I don't think backing out of commitments is really ISFP-typical behavior, but I have noticed that we don't put as much stock in old friendships (from school or college) as FJ types do. I also think we prefer to put unpleasant feelings behind us, even if they are not completely resolved. Moving on is an ISFP trait. She's moved on from this, and you're not going to get the resolution you require from her. It's probably better to just move on yourself and forget her, even if that's painful for you.
    She'll attempt to be friendly in a light, casual sort of way (saying hello), but she doesn't really put a lot of effort into it.
    I have witnessed this kind of conflict between FP and FJ for quite a few times. Some FJs have even difficulties (perhaps just IFJs?) having casual friends, while FPs can totally be absorbed by casual friends. FJs might carry their best friends in their thoughts all the time while FPs have their best friends along with them all the time - the people the FP is with are the best friends at the time. This might lead to situations where FJ becomes bitter feeling that all that emotional investment has gone lost, while FP thinks FJs are too static and no fun to be around.

    It's actually rather common that FJ is waiting for some kind of emotional resolution whilst FPs are being totally oblivious of this. Only a quick confrontation can save the situation, I think.
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
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  8. #18
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    I guess I just need closure about it. Leaving it open hurts me, I need to talk to her. I will probably be in her area next fall and the practical reason is connected to the whole thing, taking the pictures I have not been able to take because she didn't show up, and it would inevitably lead to talking about the incident. I'll see what she has to say.

    But I understand your point. I see her behaviour as a constant, and I am very much on my guard now. I need closure, but I won't care to pursue a friendship, it would lead to more hurt. She lives far away, anyway.

    Ahh, closure. An elusive concept, at least for me. I'll think I get closure, then I'll find that I need it again a couple weeks later, and then a couple weeks after that when I think of a new angle. haha. And what do you want her to say? I'm sorry? Is that what closure means for you? Or that she say "I didn't/don't want to be friends anymore?" That's putting someone quite on the spot, and violating their own privacy and space, if you think about it. As much as we like it or not, closure happens when the conflict happens for the other person much of the time. It's just our not wanting to accept it that leads to us having feelings of manipulating in the name of 'closure.' Anymore I think 'needing closure' is just our desperate inability to accept something, and in that, our pathetic attempt to manipulate the situation so that we can. There are other, healthier, and less manipuative ways to accept one's fate than seeking closure.

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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  9. #19
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    Could you clarify this?

    You may have to let your expectations of her go. FWIW the most distressing and disappointing personal experiences of my life have been when I have entrusted my security (emotional, financial, etc.) to the vagaries of another's constancy. We simply cannot have any real control over how others behave...we only control (or not) our reactions. If you wish to continue to have this woman in your life you may have to "hold on loosely" as the song goes. She is perhaps a very free spirit who chooses to pass through this world in a blithe manner. Her slights to you may not be somthing that she is even aware of....she does not share your values...that does not mean that she does not genuinely value you as a friend she simply has a different idea of what a "friend" is. Friends may be peripheral to her rather than central.

    Here is the painting if you want to see it:

    Nice. James is my favorite book as well.


    her kindness stirs something up in me that makes me care about her beyond just the artwork.

    We seek kindness, affirmation perhaps the desire to have a hearts companion who seemingly understands us to our very depths? This is alluring; all the moreso if that person is someone who we admire as a creative spirit. If I could have a friendship with an artist I greatly admire and their approval of my work that might become a need in me, an addiction which my self confidence may depend upon.

    ...my artwork is an expression of my soul...if someone acts the way she did about it, I see it as personal rejection. She probably doesn't see it that way.

    I hear what you are saying. I understand. I am more of an artisan than artist but I share similar feelings. Our "art" is our art. It stands alone because it must be made regardless of anyone else's opinion. If our work is admired, great! If not, it is no less important; we learned from our process and we move ahead that much more practised. If we truly believe that we are "Artists" creative souls...the work is its own reward and other's approval or enthusiasm is just gravy.

    ...she refered to the novel I had written many years ago and said: "I still have it" with a shy smile...She looked a bit embarrassed and said: "I can't believe I didn't keep in touch with you about it."

    You must take her at her word then if you would maintain the relationship. If you do not, the implication is that she is lying to you. Is she? She may be a spirit that you (or anyone else) cannot own. All you may ever have are brief meaningful interactions before she is off again. Like seeing a rare bird we cannot control its arrival or departure or wether or not it poops on our car window.

    Clearly she has a hold on you. I understand, really I do; I have been subject to similar enthusiasms....You are no less what you are with or without her. Your work is your work with or without her investment as attractive as it might be. There are many compensations in the life of an artist and many comforts we may have to surrender to maintain the lifestyle.
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

  10. #20
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohengrin View Post
    Actually, its more common than you would think. Two of my ISFP friends flake out on me all the time. They enjoy having me as a friends so it isn't intentional. Merely a case of out of sight, out of mind (which, I hate to say, I have noticed in plenty of ISPs). They make promises fully intending to keep them and then the blasted P goes into 'under-drive' and its downhill from there. After a while, I just grew to reduce my expectations of them with regards to deadlines and following through on their word.

    As Ayoits said, don't write. Call. Be controlled; an outburst might make her clam up. That said, dont be so controlled and subtle that she doesnt get the message.
    Thanks, this really helps me.

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