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  1. #221
    Senior Member countrygirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast View Post
    I realize because I'm a very strong enfj who is currently closer than anyone else in the world to an istp, I tend to see us at two ends of a 'typology spectrum' in a sense of extremes. I know there is some truth to it though. I really feel like both ideals: "soul mate" for life; "play mate" for life are unrealistic in that relationships are emergent. They could feel like one of those for a period of time, and perhaps even on and off, but will never be either. my problem though is that i find meaning in dreams & pretense. I want to "play" soul mates for a time, because i am rational enough to see that the result of that would mean to me that we are in a sense, & then we would, by default be "play mates."

    The J in me 'expects' a relationship to have a bit of both, but in a sort of pattern. There's a butterfly phase then a comfort phase. I almost feel like, while less intense, its the Istps unwritten goal to do this backwards. This breeds too much insecurity for me, and perhaps anxiety & discomfort for him.

    I've actually heard him say he gets "butterflies" in retrospect, when he's feeling comfortable & secure about us. This friggen baffles me.
    So basicly what you are saying is that when life doesn't go the way you expect it to (including relationships), you get frightened and confused?

  2. #222
    Senior Member toast's Avatar
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    Bet you weren't expecting me to say "definitely."

    That's like asking an accountant if he feels confused when he bounces a check. I'm an ENFJ, I live in the future.
    Its not as if I have a long preordained plan that has to be followed in all things... there are just points along the way that I recognize as feeling "right" or "wrong". These are what ground me, keep me in the present. If there aren't enough that feel "right", I feel lost. The above was an evaluation of something I have never consciously "modeled" before I wrote it. It is a pattern that just naturally occurred in my past relationships & I realized that I also see it around me in other people which makes it appear "normal" or "expected" to me. When thinking about my relationship & what frightened me or confused me, I came to the conclusion that my fears came when I didn't recognize I was getting the opposite of the "model" of relationship I described, I didn't even realize things weren't as I 'expected' them to be... I just felt uneasy & came to that conclusion when I tried to figure it all out.

    But yes, definitely.
    ____________________________________________
    "In my soul rages a battle without victor. Between faith without proof and reason without charm." - Sully Prudhomme

  3. #223
    Senior Member toast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sLiPpY View Post
    Where do people get this idea that we are somehow not complete unless we are connected to another person? What are we? An electrical outlet waiting for a plug, so we can finally light up the world?

    Every time I hear the term "soul mate" I shudder. Each time one gets triggered with shenpa, were being asked to grow beyond our normal limiting beliefs and discover a deeper cavern of peace at the very core of our being.

    So in essense every one we encounter in life is a "soul mate." Most of our soul mates are idiots, and therefore our best teachers.

    sLiPpY's School of ISTP Zen is sojourn for the day.
    I get where you're coming from. I actually think most ENFJs would cringe at the idea of the stereotypical "one person for me" soul mate even, but it was the best term to illustrate the gulf between my concept of an ideal partner & his. I don't favor some idea of fusing with someone else. I like the idea of wanting to relate to someone else as much possible. There is no 'borg' assimilation or parasitic quality there. I know my ideal is impossible, but it isn't unhealthy. I want someone to know me more than anyone else. I understand people can see things in me I may be unaware of, but I know it isn't possible for anyone to know me more than I do. That's why this ISTP anxiety of getting too close & losing yourself is so confusing to me. It doesn't seem rational. No one can "be one" with me, how could that be a real threat to anyone else?

    I think a lot of the desire I have for connection with other people comes from being entirely aware of that reality that I am always going to be alone. I have no fear for myself of anyone getting 'too' close because I can see the threshold they are never getting past. (And this is apart from fear of experience emotional pain from rejection, loss, etc.). I don't have to make a conscious effort to hold anyone off for that reason. Without that concern, why the hell wouldn't I be more interested in connection than autonomy?

    I can be rational about independence. I can say its natural, inherent in everyone & there is a stronger focus on it in you than in me. Its easier for you. But in reality, you are not more independent than me because you want to be. I might react differently than you if I lost everyone I care about, & I'd definitely be more miserable surviving some post apocalyptic scenario or hermit hood where I found myself utterly alone. But I wouldn't just stop existing if everyone else disappeared. You are also not so autonomous that you don't seek connection. In reality, we are both alone & we are both connected. You just care more about one & I care primarily about the other.

    Does it make sense to say I feel like I see the boundaries between people very clearly, so they aren't my focus? I see division, complimentation, non-continuum, boundaries everywhere. I have no interest in exaggerating that. I'm interested in how close you can be to someone else.

    That doesn't exclude anyone necessarily... and is definitely more interesting with people who very different to me.
    ____________________________________________
    "In my soul rages a battle without victor. Between faith without proof and reason without charm." - Sully Prudhomme

  4. #224
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    For ISTP's who have developed their Extroverted Sensing, they understand the benefits of close relationships and understand how to support and enhance those relationships. By the same token I wouldn't expect myself to become the master of "touchy-feely." Relationships are a lot easier with types that are less likely to assume a lack of feedback is not necessarily negative feedback.

    For me at least I also recognize "aloneness" as the reality of life, the natural state of being. Every relationship we encounter in life will most certainly end. I personally don't think that it's possible to truly know another human being, like we can know ourselves. However, that's not to say that sharing a part of the journey isn't beneficial in growing oneself.

    An ISTP is a lot like clutching sand in one's hand...if a person grips it too tightly it's more likely to slip through one's fingers.

  5. #225
    Senior Member toast's Avatar
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    ^ Insightful. Especially the 'sand in one's hand.' Sigh... not feeling very positive right now so I have nothing to say but "woe is me" to the fact that I feel like I function on feedback, so no feedback is just negative to me, plain & simple. I feel like loving him at all is wasted. I can't show him without hurting myself.
    ____________________________________________
    "In my soul rages a battle without victor. Between faith without proof and reason without charm." - Sully Prudhomme

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast View Post
    ^ Insightful. Especially the 'sand in one's hand.' Sigh... not feeling very positive right now so I have nothing to say but "woe is me" to the fact that I feel like I function on feedback, so no feedback is just negative to me, plain & simple. I feel like loving him at all is wasted. I can't show him without hurting myself.
    I see that you've identified your own potential path to equanimity. Love is simply wanting others to be happy. Loving unconditionally requires a lot of courage and acceptance (including self-acceptance).

    Approaching the concept of love with de-tachment and an unselfish interest in others' welfare is a personal goal. Which requires constant practice that yields progress in small increments over long periods of time.

    Sounds like a great opportunity to work with shenpa, gosh knows we don't have to go looking for it. It always finds us.

  7. #227
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Romantic relationships are supposed to be symbiotic and they are conditional. Unconditional love is for parents for their children, not for life partners. Partners both work toward a common, mutually beneficial goal. If the partners do not have a goal in common or one or both of them is not willing to work towards it, it's a dysfunctional partnership.

    After a reasonable effort has been made to negotiate something mutually beneficial and proved unsuccessful, it's much better to move on sooner rather than later, IMO. Later can involved children and property and it gets that much harder to get loose and find something that does work.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #228
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    Yes cafe, you are correct in perceiving how our culture approaches relationships. American women and men are geared tword symbiotic and conditional relationships, where I prefer mutualism. Is it any wonder the divorse rate is over fifty percent?

  9. #229
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sLiPpY View Post
    Yes cafe, you are correct in perceiving how our culture approaches relationships. American women and men are geared tword symbiotic and conditional relationships, where I prefer mutualism. Is it any wonder the divorse rate is over fifty percent?
    I think the divorce rate has more to do, in large part, with unrealistic expectations and naivety in partner choice -- fueled by media stupidity.

    I've heard way too many women justify staying with a guy that won't work to support his own children, that cheats on, and/or physically abuses her because she loves him unconditionally. All the signs are there right in the beginning and she believes love conquers all and all it takes is the love of a good woman, etc. Eventually, they do wind up divorcing and the state has to track his ass down for non-payment of child support.

    Mutualism is a new term for me. How do you define it?

    I don't know about a whole lot of things, but I have some experience with building and maintaining a happy marriage. Maybe it's my socio-eco group, but IME life is hard and if you are having issues with wonkiness early on, they are probably only going to intensify with time.

    Now if you don't ever want to establish a household together or want to have children, you can get by with a lot, but many women, at least, do seem to want a joint household and family and for that, you need someone you can rely on and get along with because it's just too hard to be dealing with a lot of relationship crap when you've got kid and money stuff to look after.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers
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  10. #230
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    I hate to break the direction of the discussion, especially since it's an very insightful one, but I want to borrow this thread and ask for some more advices regarding the aftermath of my situation.

    Specifically, I don't know how to (or should I even) make amends with M (the ISTP guy) and the rest of the house.

    I miss hanging out with them still. And it's true, the house no longer feels like that "family" that it once was. I talked today to one of the people there that I'm still friends with, he said M is slowly picking his stuff up together. But he is "unofficially" together with another girl that hung out at the house all the time like me.

    And that's ok with me now, I'm close to being able to let it all go. But the last step in that is for me to receive some sort of apology by M. If he moved on to another girl, that's fine, things happen. But the fact that he two-timed me and lied to me to hook up with me, I just want some justice for that. If he could apologize for that, I can put everything behind, move on, and enjoy building friendships again (even if it has to be from scratch).

    But I don't know how to communicate that to him. Or maybe should I take the initiative? is my question. Will he even want to be friends with me? (a couple weeks ago I initiated a very surface-level text convo with him. He responded, but it died very quickly)

    If you (ISTPs) wronged somebody and hurt somebody (knowingly and unknowingly), that person took a distance from you for a while and then wants to come back into your life as long as you clear out the air with the person, what would be your reaction?

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