[ESTP] ESTPs and competitiveness

[Jaguar]

She starts asking me how I would handle having an open relationship with three people-one man and three women.

 

[sculpting]

Happy Puppy had the correct instinct/interpretation all along.

It's good that you can spot NPD, the women who don't have the ability to correctly assess the quality of attention... Well, even the highly functioning narcissist tend to leave a wake of destruction in their path.

Blue Monday clued me in. However he is the ultimate NeFi trap. He seeks endless love and attention. An enfp seeks to incinerate someone with endless love and affection. IIIII LOOOOOVVVVEEEEE YYOOOUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!


Funny, my ENTP date, waited until they left and summed it up-"Crazy, both utterly crazy." He noted they feed off of each other and justify each others behavior.

and yes Jag, I was like WTF as well. When the convos get like that I just drink another guinness and pretend everything is perfectly normal.

 

[sLiPpY]

"Crazy, both utterly crazy." Yes they are, but it's good when they're attracted to each other. Most of the time in a working environment, one that is of the same sex will scan the environment for an individual to "friend."

They typically pick an individual who has an attribute they envy, sort of eventually pushing down to propel themselves forward?

Reading your story reminds me it's time to seek out a new environment. There's one at the top of the chain, which isn't a problem for me. It was however a problem for my two previous and former superiors... lol

Knowledge is power, and one can learn which button to push to effectively become the next best thing since sliced bread. The trick is to teeter totter in such a way as not to hit the inevitable cycle of devaluation. Familiarity eventually breeds contempt. There's no reason for it, their minds don't function like other peoples as is demonstrable in a spect scan.

Where I spend my time daily I'm trapped with one in the same space. That too is easy to manage, but other departments complain from time to time when well...and I sometimes wander the building looking for normal people just to pass a little time with, for some sense of normal.

Although I can manage it and know what I'm dealing with...it's tiresome and somehow not fulfilling to spend one's time each day with well I look at it like they're "not real." Sometimes I'll goose my co-worker up to momentarily torture and put the fear of god into that bratty 5 year old I'm stuck working with.

I've survived two superiors and working on number three in less than two years. So, couple of certifications I want to update over the spring and then go shopping.

 

[sculpting]

Where I spend my time daily I'm trapped with one in the same space. That too is easy to manage, but other departments complain from time to time when well...and I sometimes wander the building looking for normal people just to pass a little time with, for some sense of normal.

Yes. I totally do this. I will actually spend days sitting back in the Research building with all of the INTPs or in Manufacturing with the ISTJs as they all feel so much more normal.

You know it was actually really useful to write this all down, although the thread title has become misleading now. It was a jumble of details in my mind but seeing it written out has given it structure. It isnt about the hooking up at all. It is about her losing her playmate, her friend who is very much like her. They run through life together like little children, ignoring all of the rules and living in the moment. They validate each others behavior. She is terrified I might take that away yet craves my friendship as most other women shun her. So she oscillates, torn between showing off her "collection of people", including the man, decidedly larger than mine, and seeking sort some of friendship as she is lonely.

Sorry ESTPs I haven't meet a female ESTP so I thought this might be the norm. Thanks for setting me straight.

Something I have noticed-here at type C we tend to chunk the weird ones in the "crazy" bucket and move on, glad it isnt us (well you at least ). However given that it is all about cognitive theory and psychology, the way our minds work, this confuses me. Aren't the crazy ones the most fascinating of all? If you cannot explain them with the theory, the theory is broken.

I spent a lot of time watching the man-once I understood how odd he was, he became the ultimate people puzzle. He totally broke my mold of entps-MBTI was totally insufficient. The jungian functions do a much better job. So I studied him and compared to normal entps to try and understand where he went wrong. What makes a narcissist? Can you fix them? Te found a challenging puzzle there. Fi is a damned martyr of course. The women is interesting too.

What I see and understand is not in line with traditional concepts of sociopathy or narcissism. Both of these disorders are as poorly understood as borderline. All three are based on external observations that do not accurately reflect how these folks think/feel on the inside-based upon what they tell me and what I observe.

In this instance these individuals very much love certain others-in very strange, socially skewed ways. He loves his daughters more than anything. She very much loves her dad and bought him a house and pays all of his bills. Yet obviously they ignore most social conventions and use and hurt many people in the process, pathologically lie, and act really strange.

Rather than dump them in the crazy bucket, then wipe your hands clean of them, why not admit that each type can be a little nutty, then use them as models for what not to become?

 

[entropie]

The one ESTP I know has so many friends and such a huge network of connections interwebbed all over the planet as it seems sometimes, he does not really have to be competetive at all, cause he is already ranked #1, if you get my drift.

Judging from that logic, I also could not imagine a healthy ESTP to be competitive, but anything is possible

As long as writing about it helps you, you are getting somewhere

 

[Heinel]

Yes. I totally do this. I will actually spend days sitting back in the Research building with all of the INTPs or in Manufacturing with the ISTJs as they all feel so much more normal.

You know it was actually really useful to write this all down, although the thread title has become misleading now. It was a jumble of details in my mind but seeing it written out has given it structure. It isnt about the hooking up at all. It is about her losing her playmate, her friend who is very much like her. They run through life together like little children, ignoring all of the rules and living in the moment. They validate each others behavior. She is terrified I might take that away yet craves my friendship as most other women shun her. So she oscillates, torn between showing off her "collection of people", including the man, decidedly larger than mine, and seeking sort some of friendship as she is lonely.

Sorry ESTPs I haven't meet a female ESTP so I thought this might be the norm. Thanks for setting me straight.

Something I have noticed-here at type C we tend to chunk the weird ones in the "crazy" bucket and move on, glad it isnt us (well you at least ). However given that it is all about cognitive theory and psychology, the way our minds work, this confuses me. Aren't the crazy ones the most fascinating of all? If you cannot explain them with the theory, the theory is broken.

I spent a lot of time watching the man-once I understood how odd he was, he became the ultimate people puzzle. He totally broke my mold of entps-MBTI was totally insufficient. The jungian functions do a much better job. So I studied him and compared to normal entps to try and understand where he went wrong. What makes a narcissist? Can you fix them? Te found a challenging puzzle there. Fi is a damned martyr of course. The women is interesting too.

What I see and understand is not in line with traditional concepts of sociopathy or narcissism. Both of these disorders are as poorly understood as borderline. All three are based on external observations that do not accurately reflect how these folks think/feel on the inside-based upon what they tell me and what I observe.

In this instance these individuals very much love certain others-in very strange, socially skewed ways. He loves his daughters more than anything. She very much loves her dad and bought him a house and pays all of his bills. Yet obviously they ignore most social conventions and use and hurt many people in the process, pathologically lie, and act really strange.

Rather than dump them in the crazy bucket, then wipe your hands clean of them, why not admit that each type can be a little nutty, then use them as models for what not to become?

That's very humanistic reasoning. If you're an F, you shouldn't be able to do this


Just kidding.

 

[sLiPpY]

What I see and understand is not in line with traditional concepts of sociopathy or narcissism. Both of these disorders are as poorly understood as borderline. All three are based on external observations that do not accurately reflect how these folks think/feel on the inside-based upon what they tell me and what I observe.

In this instance these individuals very much love certain others-in very strange, socially skewed ways. He loves his daughters more than anything. She very much loves her dad and bought him a house and pays all of his bills. Yet obviously they ignore most social conventions and use and hurt many people in the process, pathologically lie, and act really strange.

Rather than dump them in the crazy bucket, then wipe your hands clean of them, why not admit that each type can be a little nutty, then use them as models for what not to become?

Interesting thoughts...

It's a topic I have a lot of observational experience with, and agree on the inaccuracy between what's observed and what the individuals experience. A psychologist would say that NPD is very difficult to diagnose, even hours upon hours of conversations with a patient.

I suspect my grandmother was one. She worshiped and praised the ground her daughter walked on. Her daughter and her daughters children is all grandma ever wanted to talk about. Grandma gave them land, cars, tens of thousands, eventually hundreds of thousands of dollars.

When Grandma got lung cancer she gave her "Golden Child" power of attorney.
Golden Child helped herself to Vegas and lost a quarter of a million dollars, then perked herself up with a similar shopping spree. My Aunt left Grandma sitting in her own feces for two days before she died.

Grandma had three children, eight grand children, and six great-grandchildren.
Me and my sister didn't even know she'd been sick until my dad finally called my sister a couple of hours before the funeral. I thought that was pretty shitty to call sis up and want for her to show at the last minute? But I didn't say anything other than to express I would be too embarrassed to surprise my boss like that at the last minute, and for what?

The cumulative years of drama had fragmented and disassociated the family to the point. There was no one left to care for Grandma excepting Golden Child, and in a way it seems like poetic justice and/or the Karma Police made their final round.

Though the years, people that met my grandmother thought she was a genuine and nice person. Someone outside of the spectrum just can't see it, and it really doesn't matter or answer the question of who a person is in that context.

I sometimes wonder if all of these things we try to describe and label with a diagnosis are simply genetic or purely inherent to primarily brain function, coupled with life experience?

As I've grown older, I've learned to spot "them" whatever they are more readily... Whatever doesn't kill one, makes one stronger...and something I've learned through the experience is not to make a value judgement about oneself as a result of interpreting another persons behavior.

 

[Jaguar]

When Grandma got lung cancer she gave her "Golden Child" power of attorney.
Golden Child helped herself to Vegas and lost a quarter of a million dollars, then perked herself up with a similar shopping spree. My Aunt left Grandma sitting in her own feces for two days before she died.

Sickening.

 

[Pillows]

2. I came back utterly confused. He comes in town a few weeks later. I consult with ESTP-I told her he hit on me. She said "yeah I saw that. He is just a boy though and hits on everybody." I said he was cute and would be fun to shag-was he single? Her response "You should go for it-he has a live in girlfriend of some sort but who cares??" I ask "are you guys an item?" No.

The obvious issue is him, not ESTP. Frankly speaking, if he is cheating on his live in gf and flirts profusely, why on earth would you get involved with that? From my own perspective, you didn't verbally stake your claim, which you need to ESPECIALLY if your dealing with a dude in a casual state of mind. Clearly the situation wasn't serious, so all's fair. You also mentioned you were lecturing him on accountability in his relationship, isn't that a bit backward if you wanted to hook up? I think this girl just saw it like it was: going nowhere so seize the day.

 

[jenocyde]

The obvious issue is him, not ESTP. Frankly speaking, if he is cheating on his live in gf and flirts profusely, why on earth would you get involved with that? From my own perspective, you didn't verbally stake your claim, which you need to ESPECIALLY if your dealing with a dude in a casual state of mind. Clearly the situation wasn't serious, so all's fair. You also mentioned you were lecturing him on accountability in his relationship, isn't that a bit backward if you wanted to hook up? I think this girl just saw it like it was: going nowhere so seize the day.

I was waiting for an STP chick to roll up and say this. It's all true, what you wrote.

I guess I would think the same thing. The two things stopping me would be:
1. I would never dream of being 2nd best to anyone, the live-in gf included. I just can't be "the other woman" for reasons of pride, shame, my feeling sad for the live-in gf and my thinking the underhanded dude doesn't deserve the affections of all these women.

2. I couldn't let a friend confide in me and then betray or deceive her.

How do you feel about those 2 issues? Could you listen to a friend tell you how she feels about someone, while banging that same someone?

 

[Pillows]

I guess I would think the same thing. The two things stopping me would be:
1. I would never dream of being 2nd best to anyone, the live-in gf included. I just can't be "the other woman" for reasons of pride, shame, my feeling sad for the live-in gf and my thinking the underhanded dude doesn't deserve the affections of all these women.

Perhaps next thread should be ENTPs and competitiveness

I agree with you on all points. However, love triangles are messy no matter what, and usually highly circumstantial. I unwillingly got caught in one in the past, discovering suddenly that I was the "other woman." I was wrapped in knots trying to rationalize what to do. Rationalize feelings...ha. SO, in the interest of personal growth, here were my candid conflicts: He's cheating, therefore doesn't have my respect and obviously isn't worth dating....sooo I either A) continue a casual relationship because it's all f***ed anyway, or B) break it off on behalf of righteousness.
Disclaimer: I would NEVER consciously seek out this type of situation. It's foolish and impractical and there's plenty of other fish to catch.

However, once I found myself there, the selfish(competitive?) tendencies that emerged were pretty resolute. When the chemistry is right, man it's hard to deny those SP impulses. The damage was done, so I emotionally detached in the interest of self-preservation, but kept seeing him until karma bit him in the ass. Well...I may have had a hand in tipping off karma ... That was a good day.

2. I couldn't let a friend confide in me and then betray or deceive her.

How do you feel about those 2 issues?
Could you listen to a friend tell you how she feels about someone, while banging that same someone?

Haha hell yeah, since as an ESTP that happens ALL the time (sarcasm...) I had to laugh when I read that question, what are you expecting me to say? If that question isn't laced with stereotype my name is Tiger Woods.

A healthy person does not deliberately stab someone in the back. I am fiercely loyal to my friends and I am more likely to use my charm to instigate a spark between the two. I win in their success, very gratifying. I hesitate to generalize, but ESTP style is tactful bluntness, grounded in common sense. Friend drama over a guy is a huge waste of energy, it's not worth it. Deliberately inflicting anxiety on myself is nothing short of absurd. When I am after someone my intentions are on the table, I'm obvious and my friends know what I'm up to. I expect, if not assume the same. In any relationship it is your responsibility to communicate, you lose if you aren't clear. Eh, I don't know why there's such a tendency to think we're all hookers but I guess you could correlate being impulsive coupled with a certain disconnect between love and intimacy...thoughts anyone?

Specifically relating to this thread, was it even confirmed that the ESTP hooked up with him? Details seem fuzzy. Either way, in a situation like that, where the game lay in the thrill of the chase for all parties involved, it's hardly an issue of right and wrong. Now if the guy was single, and HappyPuppy was genuinely interested in a relationship and vocalized that to the ESTP, the story would be a lot different.

 

[jenocyde]

Perhaps next thread should be ENTPs and competitiveness

Not trying to compete with you, but it's a well known "fact" that ETPs are hella competitive. Myself very much included.

However, once I found myself there, the selfish(competitive?) tendencies that emerged were pretty resolute. When the chemistry is right, man it's hard to deny those SP impulses. The damage was done, so I emotionally detached in the interest of self-preservation, but kept seeing him until karma bit him in the ass. Well...I may have had a hand in tipping off karma ... That was a good day.

I get those impulses too. But my Ne quickly scans all the possible outcomes and I decide the headache isn't worth it. It's almost never about karma getting him, but more like me being afraid that karma will get me - that I will be rewarded by being the idiot girlfriend who trusts her man while he's out banging every chick with an SP impulse. (just kidding about the SP thing)

Haha hell yeah, since as an ESTP that happens ALL the time (sarcasm...) I had to laugh when I read that question, what are you expecting me to say? If that question isn't laced with stereotype my name is Tiger Woods.

It wasn't laced with anything. I don't get why you think that was a jab at ESTPs - it was an honest question directed at anyone.

Eh, I don't know why there's such a tendency to think we're all hookers but I guess you could correlate being impulsive coupled with a certain disconnect between love and intimacy...thoughts anyone?

Do people think that about you guys? I know that EP girls, in general, are thought of as more free spirits than other types. I think all of us are hard to pin down and quick to do whatever the hell we want. In my case, it's a different type of impulse, but that disconnect is always, always, there.

Specifically relating to this thread, was it even confirmed that the ESTP hooked up with him? Details seem fuzzy. Either way, in a situation like that, where the game lay in the thrill of the chase for all parties involved, it's hardly an issue of right and wrong. Now if the guy was single, and HappyPuppy was genuinely interested in a relationship and vocalized that to the ESTP, the story would be a lot different.

I don't know. But what I meant by the above question was is the thrill of the chase more important than respecting the rules of friendship, when you really want something. And I was curious about an STP perspective on that. I've been guilty of doing many underhanded things in my life, and I would (almost) never judge another person, but I've never betrayed a friend like that. Unless, of course, I was just pretending to be her friend for whatever reason like her doing something terrible to me. And even then, that charade can't last long. I have too short of an attention span.

 

[sculpting]

Pillows thanks for the estp perspective. Sorry for the reputation that gets tossed around wrt estps. There are things you guys are awesome at. This was my first close estp friend.

Just to clarify-I stay away from the man until cornered at company events. Been doing this since March. What bothers me is not the guy issue-it is her shoving it in my face, whatever it is.

How do you show an ESTP they won? My response was to stifle the envy, be happy for her happiness. This not faked-this is me finding enough Fi to really be happy that she is happy.

Externally this would be a real, genuine smile-and saying something like " I am glad you guys are having a great time, I know you enjoy working together." or "have fun and dont get into too much trouble".

Which then leads to more "look how much fun we are going to have...look at all the things we are going to do...we had such a great time...look he is calling me again...look he is texting me again...." day after day after day...

Should I have acted mad? Instead I just cut her off. She seems sad.

 

[Pillows]

How do you show an ESTP they won? My response was to stifle the envy, be happy for her happiness. This not faked-this is me finding enough Fi to really be happy that she is happy.

Externally this would be a real, genuine smile-and saying something like " I am glad you guys are having a great time, I know you enjoy working together." or "have fun and dont get into too much trouble".

Which then leads to more "look how much fun we are going to have...look at all the things we are going to do...we had such a great time...look he is calling me again...look he is texting me again...." day after day after day...

I feel a bit embarrassed saying this, but it's the truth...I LOVE talking about love interests. It's exciting, and I have to make a point to keep myself in check so I don't sound too obsessed lol. As the type that gets her kicks from being able to nail someone's motives, I'm all over flirting shoptalk like a bee on honey.

That being said, by being "genuine" in your happiness for her (obviously not as it's driving you nuts) you are actually encouraging it. She thinks you care to hear. Like I said earlier, I don't think you effectively expressed your interest in pursuing him, so there's a good chance that she doesn't even see it as a big deal. It's possible she's been oblivious to the depth of your feelings for this guy and has no idea that talking about him even bothers you. The most effective thing to fix the situation is to tell her the truth, that she hurt you by pursuing that guy and hearing the daily play-by-play is uncomfortable. If you don't want to reopen that wound, just say, "honey. we can talk about anything, as long as it's not [manwhore]"

 

[stellar renegade]

Dude, what's with the constant influx of ESTPs now!? I have to say I love it.

We can turn the tide now and show all the haters who's the boss. Whaddya say?

 

[Sinmara]

Dude, what's with the constant influx of ESTPs now!? I have to say I love it.

We can turn the tide now and show all the haters who's the boss. Whaddya say?

Party in the SP house!!!

Friend drama over a guy is a huge waste of energy, it's not worth it. Deliberately inflicting anxiety on myself is nothing short of absurd.

YES.

I've had to cut off all communications with what used to be a friend because I just couldn't take her boy drama anymore. Every single day she would bitch about this or that and over-analyze every little thing the guy did and drag me into it by asking my opinion. If she wasn't complaining about her love life she was complaining about her job, or her family, or her car, or the fact that she wanted a pastry but didn't have one, it was always something. I just couldn't take it anymore. O_O

It makes me sad because she doesn't understand why I stopped talking to her, even though I told her exained it to her, and still tries to contact me. I like the girl, but the whining...:rolli:

 

[stellar renegade]

Party in the SP house!!!




YES.

Hey, that's what I been sayin! Made a thread about it awhile back.

 

[sculpting]

I feel a bit embarrassed saying this, but it's the truth...I LOVE talking about love interests. It's exciting, and I have to make a point to keep myself in check so I don't sound too obsessed lol. As the type that gets her kicks from being able to nail someone's motives, I'm all over flirting shoptalk like a bee on honey.

That being said, by being "genuine" in your happiness for her (obviously not as it's driving you nuts) you are actually encouraging it. She thinks you care to hear. Like I said earlier, I don't think you effectively expressed your interest in pursuing him, so there's a good chance that she doesn't even see it as a big deal. It's possible she's been oblivious to the depth of your feelings for this guy and has no idea that talking about him even bothers you. The most effective thing to fix the situation is to tell her the truth, that she hurt you by pursuing that guy and hearing the daily play-by-play is uncomfortable. If you don't want to reopen that wound, just say, "honey. we can talk about anything, as long as it's not [manwhore]"

good lord, no wonder.... I was afraid it was something like this as she honestly seems to like me. Thanks so much pillows! Honestly ESTPs are very alien to ENFPs so endless confusion abounds.

However your phase from an earlier post "tactful bluntness" is exceptionally practical. I work for an ESTP and I have no idea how to communicate with the guy-until I heard "tactfully blunt"-I couldnt understand why he kept biting my head off.

Pillows you are my awesome estp mentor! Thanks!