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  1. #81
    Senior Member toast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McRumi View Post
    Lordy! You ENTJs so love dark hypercriticism and argumentation! You've missed all the subtlety of the discussion and exhausted the entire SP Arthouse. Luckily, we are by nature an understanding and forgiving bunch.

    P.s., scolding others for their lack of inter-personal skills is rather an amusing stance for the ENTJ....esp since scolding is itself such a poor way to relate inter-personally.

    But then, ENTJs are always right, n'cest pas?
    justxher was not scolding by making a true statement. Its the implication that its pointed at you specifically that makes it appear hypercritical... but it is valuable insight.

  2. #82
    Senior Member McRumi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    She's ENTJ, she likes to get to the point

    In order to get through to an STP though, you would need to learn what motivates them, what drives them and above all, how you can present your solution in a way that is in fact 'beneficial' to them as well.

    So Rumi...spill
    What drives you? And what could make an ESTP be interested in changing his point of view? Coz that's why JJ is asking this.
    LOL..of course they like to get to the point...as much as ISTPs don't...well, unless we're actually doing something. Nothing more amusing than an ISTP tweaking a ENTJ! After all, they do need to learn to relax!

    But back to your question:

    STPs are by nature fair-minded: what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Always appeal to their sense of fair play....and if you're really clever, turn it into a problem that they can fix. Then you're really cookin!

    Something like: "So and so thinks you're just the bees-knees...but is sometimes so overwhelmed she doesn't know how to say no...and it is affecting her well-being...any ideas on how we/you could fix that without making her aware of it?"

    STPs LOVE to troubleshoot!

    But any appeal to be kinder, gentler etc is doomed to fail...STPs value independence and autonomy...and they can't be scolded or shamed into action...appeal to their troubleshooting nature and the rest will take care of itself.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Heinel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justxher View Post
    It is destructive to go through your life not worrying about how your actions affect other people. Yes, you WILL be hurting other people when you cut them out of your life, even if they aren't close personal friends. You WILL be instilling confusion and doubt in others, and you will be closing yourself off from the people that care about you.

    You will also also be hurting yourself by NOT working on your interpersonal skills, and instead just casting people aside. Because really, anybody can get along with anybody if they really try. I am not saying that you can;t give up on people, I am only saying that making that kind of decision lightly without any care for the consequences is a sign of weak inferior Fe, which is a hindrance to ISTP's development.
    That's unfortunately completely unfounded. I see our points never got across. You never even bothered to see things in our perspective, which is essentially completely different from yours - Je vs Pi.

    Internal integrity is something that IxxPs value above all else. Nothing is as destructive as giving up a person's own identity for anything else. This does not mean that we do not learn any communication skills. Rather, we learn skills that are compatible with what it means to be ourselves. Yes, those skills exist, even if the EXXJs cannot see it.

    Also, Fe need not come into the picture at all. You need to work on your expediency.
    Check out my blog: http://OrnateRitual.com

  4. #84
    Senior Member McRumi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinel View Post
    That's unfortunately completely unfounded. I see our points never got across. You never even bothered to see things in our perspective, which is essentially completely different from yours - Je vs Pi.

    Internal integrity is something that IxxPs value above all else. Nothing is as destructive as giving up a person's own identity for anything else. This does not mean that we do not learn any communication skills. Rather, we learn skills that are compatible with what it means to be ourselves. Yes, those skills exist, even if the EXXJs cannot see it.

    Also, Fe need not come into the picture at all. You need to work on your expediency.
    Few ever understand the ISTP viewpoint. ISTPs included!

    Found this wonderful ISTP descriptor...very unconventional (no talk of cars, thank god!) and well written...

    The Enigmatic ISTp - Wikisocion

  5. #85
    Senior Member Heinel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McRumi View Post
    Few ever understand the ISTP viewpoint. ISTPs included!

    Found this wonderful ISTP descriptor...very unconventional (no talk of cars, thank god!) and well written...

    The Enigmatic ISTp - Wikisocion
    That's my link you stole it. :P
    Check out my blog: http://OrnateRitual.com

  6. #86
    Senior Member McRumi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinel View Post
    That's my link you stole it. :P
    It's worth stealing!

  7. #87
    Senior Member toast's Avatar
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    okay... this is long, I'm sorry guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    This one statement stood out like a sore thumb. So would you purposely make someone feel inferior so they can strive to be better? Is this what works for you? Not judging, just asking as I have seen people use this tactic and it comes across exactly like you said. Like they are trying to make someone feel inferior hoping they will strive for better.
    I did mean to reference "vulnerability" rather than inferiority. I still stand by this. I believe ISTPs don't may not change until what they do stops "working." In the same sense, feeling types don't change until what they are doing doesn't make them feel good about themselves or others anymore. I worded that poorly. And poki, your example was a good one. I've seen that happen but never recognized what was really going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by McRumi View Post
    Potential does not equal real.

    ...

    Only for those who have self-esteem issues.
    I see "self esteem issues" as based in potential. Seeing your vulnerabilities because of your interactions with someone else triggers your potential for self esteem problems. That doesn't mean it automatically causes self esteem issues, but there are likely always other factors that determine this. You can't blame the person for feeling bad about themselves if they see bad in themselves any more than you could the other person. It is a cop-out to blame either party. Then again, I am inclined to associate blame with intention.

    This is non-sensical to me. People strive to be better because they see an objective path to improve themselves in a supportive environment, not because they feel inferior. Low self-esteem does not feed ambition, only envy and resentment..or self-hatred.
    I don't think personal change happens much in supportive environments, but that's just my experience. I usually see change in people associated with loss or environmental shift / stress. And you're right. I'm not saying poor self-esteem motivates people to get better (as I explained above). I think conquering it is a crucial step in self-betterment. Saying they should make the best of it is far removed from saying they are themselves a problem because they feel inferior. I think the only place we really disagree is how the person with inferiority issues should be viewed. But this is going off on a tangent.

    It' s perfectly sensible. People do it all the time. My argument is that you can be understanding and supportive of another without sacrificing one's innate charisma, esp if the charisma is perceived as threatening by someone with low self-esteem. But the solution is not to dilute one's own energy but to find ways to help the other find their own energy and healthy self-esteem. To weaken oneself would only send a self-defeating message.
    That makes more sense than the original post. It didn't really seem like you were saying that the "dumbing down" would be like a facade. It sounded to me like you were saying the individual who was fine with themselves would be dumber for considering change in the way they respond to the partner based on their feelings. I get you now, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinel View Post
    That's my link you stole it. :P
    That one was good. Have you guys seen some of the other ones on there? The ENFJ female portrait is ridiculous...

    EIE male and female - Wikisocion

    I can't even finish it.

  8. #88
    Senior Member McRumi's Avatar
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    "EIE male and female - Wikisocion"

    Crapinski!

  9. #89
    Senior Member Heinel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McRumi View Post
    "EIE male and female - Wikisocion"

    Crapinski!
    lol, the link I liked most is actually this one:

    SLI domain - Wikisocion

    The LSI domain only made sense to me after awhile, and while it makes sense on many many levels, I still think the SLI one is more elegant.
    Check out my blog: http://OrnateRitual.com

  10. #90
    Senior Member toast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McRumi View Post
    "EIE male and female - Wikisocion"

    Crapinski!


    The SLI domain is sweet. The LSI one... my god.
    Pretty much all of the EIE stuff I've looked at so far is just blah.

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