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  1. #61
    Senior Member McRumi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast View Post
    Everyone has potential self esteem issues when faced with a person whose strengths appear to be their vulnerabilities.

    Potential does not equal real.

    Quote Originally Posted by toast View Post
    That can, and does make the person doubt themselves eventually.
    Only for those who have self-esteem issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by toast View Post

    That can't be blamed on the person feeling inferior either.
    Of course it can. The source of the inferior feeling is located within the mind of the person who feels inferior, unless we are talking about the intentional action of belittling someone, which i had previously ruled out.

    Quote Originally Posted by toast View Post
    Just as much as it could destroy a person's self esteem as a whole, its that feeling of inferiority which makes people strive to be better.
    This is non-sensical to me. People strive to be better because they see an objective path to improve themselves in a supportive environment, not because they feel inferior. Low self-esteem does not feed ambition, only envy and resentment..or self-hatred.


    Quote Originally Posted by toast View Post
    If it is endured, the person can come to realize how they really want to be & come closer to that.
    Again, this is nonsensical to me. In fact, I don't even know what this statement means.

    Quote Originally Posted by toast View Post

    But to say the other individual is "dumbing" themselves down to make things easier for the insecure partner doesn't really make sense to me.
    It' s perfectly sensible. People do it all the time. My argument is that you can be understanding and supportive of another without sacrificing one's innate charisma, esp if the charisma is perceived as threatening by someone with low self-esteem. But the solution is not to dilute one's own energy but to find ways to help the other find their own energy and healthy self-esteem. To weaken oneself would only send a self-defeating message.

    Quote Originally Posted by toast View Post
    How is being understanding towards someone you care about make you less than you were?
    It doesn't. That's not what I wrote (for the second time).

  2. #62
    Pumpernickel
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    Quote Originally Posted by McRumi View Post
    That's not what I said at all. What I said was that no one should stifle themselves to accommodate someone else's lack of self-esteem. Does that mean one should make no effort to communicate with that person in a way that is meaningful and supportive to both parties? No. These are not mutually exclusive actions. Acting falsely is not caring about another. It is caring about how one's self is perceived.
    You entirely just reiterated your original point, that someone shouldn't "stifle themselves" to accommodate someone's self esteem. If someone in your life had a weaker self esteem, you wouldn't think it necessary to adjust your communication style to not hurt this person?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast View Post
    Heinel, very well put. And it is actually invaluable to me that you wrote about the other side of it... That T needs resolution of the concepts, even after the emotions are put straight. It is really difficult for me to conceptualize an example of that though.

    but... I would say that it is still more challenging to Fs in theory, because "stress", as you put it, to the T is easier suppressed than the irrational emotional reaction that the F would have. The reaction may be comparable, but it can't be completely subjective. How could seeking intellectual closure be as difficult as seeking emotional closure? Both will likely come eventually, but only T can really know that.



    Everyone has potential self esteem issues when faced with a person whose strengths appear to be their vulnerabilities. That can, and does make the person doubt themselves eventually. That can't be blamed on the person feeling inferior either. Just as much as it could destroy a person's self esteem as a whole, its that feeling of inferiority which makes people strive to be better. If it is endured, the person can come to realize how they really want to be & come closer to that. But to say the other individual is "dumbing" themselves down to make things easier for the insecure partner doesn't really make sense to me. How is being understanding towards someone you care about make you less than you were?
    Ok real life example. Lets say you are driving somewhere about an hour away and you have 2 hours to get their. You want to do something but dont know what. You ask your bf if there is anything he wants to do and he says no, but he will go wherever you want to go, just let him know where. Later on down the road you get mad at him because he never went anywhere and now you are gonna have to sit outside and wait because you didnt stop somewhere to kill time.

    You eventually get over the frustration and he is still waiting for a logical answer for the emotion. What goes through the Ts head. I let you know to tell me if you see anywhere or think of anywhere you want to stop. I also dont see any problem with sitting in a car together for an hour.

    In seeking intellectual closure we are finding out what needs to be done next time, what happened. The stress is not knowing or understanding what will cause that emotion again. We arent always good at reading into things.
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #64
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    The first time I told my ISTP I loved him, I got a worse reply than mere silence. Hahahaha, true fucking story.

    When he eventually caught up and fell in love with me, he told me so, which was loverly.



    I think it takes them more time to process their emotions than it does us mushy NFs.
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    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast View Post
    Just as much as it could destroy a person's self esteem as a whole, its that feeling of inferiority which makes people strive to be better.
    This one statement stood out like a sore thumb. So would you purposely make someone feel inferior so they can strive to be better? Is this what works for you? Not judging, just asking as I have seen people use this tactic and it comes across exactly like you said. Like they are trying to make someone feel inferior hoping they will strive for better.
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #66
    Senior Member Heinel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justxher View Post
    You entirely just reiterated your original point, that someone shouldn't "stifle themselves" to accommodate someone's self esteem. If someone in your life had a weaker self esteem, you wouldn't think it necessary to adjust your communication style to not hurt this person?
    You're missing a key concept. It is implied in his first post that there is a fundamental difference between changing your nature to accommodate someone (which, if I read him correctly, he thinks is impossible or unsustainable), and to find a happy medium between two less than perfectly compatible people (which is also what I think is the right thing to do).
    Check out my blog: http://OrnateRitual.com

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by McRumi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by toast View Post
    But to say the other individual is "dumbing" themselves down to make things easier for the insecure partner doesn't really make sense to me.
    It' s perfectly sensible. People do it all the time. My argument is that you can be understanding and supportive of another without sacrificing one's innate charisma, esp if the charisma is perceived as threatening by someone with low self-esteem. But the solution is not to dilute one's own energy but to find ways to help the other find their own energy and healthy self-esteem. To weaken oneself would only send a self-defeating message.
    Charisma is a feeling that is exerted outward. So "dumbing" down your charisma is really not "dumbing" down. "dumbing" down is in an intellectual sense, making yourself seem not as good as others. In the way you described it charisma can actually lift someone up and I can see whyyou wouldnt want to get rid of that. But one way to dumb down is to bring out your struggles, your screw ups, your problems to make the person feel like they are not alone. You can also let the other person be better then you. To me feelings are neither dumb nor smart and cannot be "dumbed" down or "smartened" up.

    Where I can see issues is if your charisma is based on you doing good or being good at something and in essence not doing good kills your charisma then I can see how "dumbing" down can be tied to charisma within you.

    This makes me think about your post
    Quote Originally Posted by McRumi View Post
    Acting falsely is not caring about another. It is caring about how one's self is perceived.
    When you say one's self is perceived are you speaking internal or externally? Do you care how other percieve you or how you percieve yourself?

    I know with me I can see the charisma based on how certain people percieve me, but to me "dumbing" down requires a self confidence because you lose that charisma from what others think.

    edit: sorry, you lose that charisma from not knowing that you are good also, not always from what others think. It could be both.
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #68
    Pumpernickel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinel View Post
    You're missing a key concept. It is implied in his first post that there is a fundamental difference between changing your nature to accommodate someone (which, if I read him correctly, he thinks is impossible or unsustainable), and to find a happy medium between two less than perfectly compatible people (which is also what I think is the right thing to do).
    Actually, the distinction that his first post presented was between purposely attacking someone, and having someone being offended by something you do. This is obviously not the same as the distinction you just presented.

    Also, it seemed very much like he implied that the point at which you say "it is absolutely impossible for me to communicate with this person" can be taken lightly, which I think is a destructive attitude.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Heinel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justxher View Post
    Also, it seemed very much like he implied that the point at which you say "it is absolutely impossible for me to communicate with this person" can be taken lightly, which I think is a destructive attitude.
    In what way is this destructive?

    Actually, the distinction that his first post presented was between purposely attacking someone, and having someone being offended by something you do. This is obviously not the same as the distinction you just presented.
    Bad wording on my part. It is implied that there is a fundamental difference between trying to change human nature (which is likely impossible or unsustainable) and to find a happy medium between two less than perfectly compatible people.
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  10. #70
    Senior Member McRumi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinel View Post
    You're missing a key concept. It is implied in his first post that there is a fundamental difference between changing your nature to accommodate someone (which, if I read him correctly, he thinks is impossible or unsustainable), and to find a happy medium between two less than perfectly compatible people (which is also what I think is the right thing to do).
    Exactly. Well, almost exactly, but close enough. Thank you.

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