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[MBTI General] xSTPs and manipulation

Sinmara

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Man. That sounds familiar. I once described the ESTP I dated as "a worthy adversary" to my friend. To which she responded, " :shock:...this is someone you like, right?"

Yep.

"A worthy adversary"...and thus desribes my teenage life with my ISTP father. ;) The mind games were intriguing enough that I sort of had a sense of anticipation for what he'd try on me next and yet they were emotionally draining and stressful. We eventually just sort of stepped back from each other and called a truce.
 

Uytuun

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The bolded part doesn't quite make sense from the standpoint of someone trying to maneuver another person...when someone doesn't respond in the way you anticipated or wanted, you don't get upset and argue that your request is logical, you either do damage control and try to deflect from your mistake or go with it and try again from a different angle. What you've said doesn't sound right at all.

Either that, or you interprited an ESTP behavior as deceptive when they were being honest and got upset at being falsely accused.

This happens when they think (feel) they are falsely accused when really they are called out on structural and unconscious (manipulative) tendencies they are unaware of.
 

Sinmara

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This happens when they think (feel) they are falsely accused when really they are called out on structural and unconscious (manipulative) tendencies they are unaware of.

The maniulative tendencies aren't unconscious. We're all very aware that we're doing it when we're doing it because it takes a conscious mapping out of reactions and plans As and Bs and such. Like I said, either the person you've dealt with is a horrible liar and shouldn't be compared to the rest of us or they really were being honest. I've often been accused of being sneaky when I was being quite blunt and upfront because I behave the same way in each case and most people can't tell the difference. That could even be an explanation for what happened.
 

Uytuun

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The maniulative tendencies aren't unconscious. We're all very aware that we're doing it when we're doing it because it takes a conscious mapping out of reactions and plans As and Bs and such. Like I said, either the person you've dealt with is a horrible liar and shouldn't be compared to the rest of us or they really were being honest. I've often been accused of being sneaky when I was being quite blunt and upfront because I behave the same way in each case and most people can't tell the difference. That could even be an explanation for what happened.

You're only aware of what you are aware. To follow your own circular logic.

A tendency is not an action. I'm not talking about concrete instances of smooth talking, I'm talking about underlying patterns in behaviour and thinking style...in personality I suppose. They make for manipulation (not naturally defined (and I argue recognised) as such by ESTPs) on a whole other level.
 

Halla74

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You're only aware of what you are aware. To follow your own circular logic.

A tendency is not an action. I'm not talking about concrete instances of smooth talking, I'm talking about underlying patterns in behaviour and thinking style...in personality I suppose. They make for manipulation (not naturally defined (and I argue recognised) as such by ESTPs) on a whole other level.

I'll apologize for all the ESTPs that ever manipulated you in any way. We are very, very sorry and hope you can forgive us. We are losing sleep over hurting your ILAC. :cry:
 

Poki

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I'll apologize for all the ESTPs that ever manipulated you in any way. We are very, very sorry and hope you can forgive us. We are losing sleep over hurting your ILAC. :cry:

UyTuun, See that sounded sincere to me. Any sense of manipulation may just be some kind of insecurity on your part.
 

Sinmara

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You're only aware of what you are aware. To follow your own circular logic.

A tendency is not an action. I'm not talking about concrete instances of smooth talking, I'm talking about underlying patterns in behaviour and thinking style...in personality I suppose. They make for manipulation (not naturally defined (and I argue recognised) as such by ESTPs) on a whole other level.

See, this is where I think the SP/NJ disconnect is coming into play. I'll try to explain again, quite sincerely, even though I'm sure you'll tell me I'm full of crap because your mind just plain works differently than mine.

xSTPs tend to be very self-aware. We generally don't have many unconscious behaviors or unacknowledged motivations because just as we are constantly categorizing and analyzing the world around us, we're also constantly doing the same to ourselves and trouble-shooting and picking ourselves apart in our own heads. I once told a guy I was dating when he pointed out what he thought would be a dramatic revelation about me and I just shrugged and admitted to it without missing a beat, "Just because I don't admit a flaw about myself to you doesn't mean I'm blindly ignorant of it. I know exactly what's going on in my head." Again, not to speak in absolutes, because I'm sure there are some dumbass xSTPs out there who need a boot up their asses, but this is how most xSTPs are.

We don't do unintentional manipulation. It's just not how we think or operate. If you see one of us trying to extend our influence over another person, even if it's over something small and inconsequential, we've already thought ahead to the endgame with a few contingency plans in our back pocket for just in case. That is how the mind of an xSTP works -- when it comes to dealing with other people, it's all at the forefront. Just because we don't pipe up and declare our intentions doesn't mean we're unaware. We are conscious of what we're doing every single time. You may not see this because we tend to play things very close to the chest and don't like to reveal too many of our trade secrets. ;)

Manipulation is not the natural, constant state of xSTPs. The natural state of an xSTP is to be blunt and honest, often to the point of sounding tactless. (I've often been told I have all the tact of a blunt axe. ;D) It's easier to be honest than it is to have your manipulation switch flipped to the ON position all the time. It's just not practical. We can't always be strategizing in our heads and forecasting the next move; that's a skill we turn on and off as needed. If someone asks us our opinion, we're more likely to tell the god's honest truth than say what they want to hear. There have to be other factors in play to make us behave contrary to what comes naturally to us.

So, to say that xSTPs are always manipulative to some degree without realizing it because that is the constant and natural pattern of thought we always use isn't really accurate.

I welcome the other xSTPs to affirm or dispute this, but I'm pretty sure I have it right.
 

McRumi

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Every type can be manipulative...that is a matter of choice/free will. There as many ways to be manipulative as there are types. "Manipulative" is not part of personality type...it's a moral state. THAT said, ISTP's are superb at manipulating if they choose to manipulate because they read cues superbly...although given their underlying drive to "problem-solve", they often lose interest as soon as the problem is solved...thus you would rarely see long-term relationship or emotional manipulation by an ISTP....and you would never see them manipulating others just for fun...that has no appeal to the ISTP at all.
 

onemoretime

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See, this is where I think the SP/NJ disconnect is coming into play. I'll try to explain again, quite sincerely, even though I'm sure you'll tell me I'm full of crap because your mind just plain works differently than mine.

xSTPs tend to be very self-aware. We generally don't have many unconscious behaviors or unacknowledged motivations because just as we are constantly categorizing and analyzing the world around us, we're also constantly doing the same to ourselves and trouble-shooting and picking ourselves apart in our own heads. I once told a guy I was dating when he pointed out what he thought would be a dramatic revelation about me and I just shrugged and admitted to it without missing a beat, "Just because I don't admit a flaw about myself to you doesn't mean I'm blindly ignorant of it. I know exactly what's going on in my head." Again, not to speak in absolutes, because I'm sure there are some dumbass xSTPs out there who need a boot up their asses, but this is how most xSTPs are.

We don't do unintentional manipulation. It's just not how we think or operate. If you see one of us trying to extend our influence over another person, even if it's over something small and inconsequential, we've already thought ahead to the endgame with a few contingency plans in our back pocket for just in case. That is how the mind of an xSTP works -- when it comes to dealing with other people, it's all at the forefront. Just because we don't pipe up and declare our intentions doesn't mean we're unaware. We are conscious of what we're doing every single time. You may not see this because we tend to play things very close to the chest and don't like to reveal too many of our trade secrets. ;)

Manipulation is not the natural, constant state of xSTPs. The natural state of an xSTP is to be blunt and honest, often to the point of sounding tactless. (I've often been told I have all the tact of a blunt axe. ;D) It's easier to be honest than it is to have your manipulation switch flipped to the ON position all the time. It's just not practical. We can't always be strategizing in our heads and forecasting the next move; that's a skill we turn on and off as needed. If someone asks us our opinion, we're more likely to tell the god's honest truth than say what they want to hear. There have to be other factors in play to make us behave contrary to what comes naturally to us.

So, to say that xSTPs are always manipulative to some degree without realizing it because that is the constant and natural pattern of thought we always use isn't really accurate.

I welcome the other xSTPs to affirm or dispute this, but I'm pretty sure I have it right.

Once again, I really think xSTPs and xNTPs have the closest viewpoints of the world to each other relative to other types. It's just the presentation that's completely different. For example, INTPs usually have hobbies they constantly seek to master and find solace in, ENTPs usually are complete experience junkies, ISTPs generally have innovative theories about how the world works, and ESTPs love to speak out about the things they know and the possibilities those things may have associated with them. It's just that those aren't necessarily the first thing the particular types show about themselves.
 

McRumi

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"ISTPs generally have innovative theories about how the world works..."

ISTPs usually steer clear of theory and aren't overly concerned about how the world works... ....I think a more accurate statement would be: ISTPs bring innovative problem-solving to their work.
 

Poki

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Once again, I really think xSTPs and xNTPs have the closest viewpoints of the world to each other relative to other types. It's just the presentation that's completely different. For example, INTPs usually have hobbies they constantly seek to master and find solace in, ENTPs usually are complete experience junkies, ISTPs generally have innovative theories about how the world works, and ESTPs love to speak out about the things they know and the possibilities those things may have associated with them. It's just that those aren't necessarily the first thing the particular types show about themselves.

This seems true. I can see INTPs playing with details(Si) just as easily as an ISTP can play with theory(Ni). It seems like our internal functions are things that we have this huge desire to understand and play with.
 

Heinel

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"ISTPs generally have innovative theories about how the world works..."

ISTPs usually steer clear of theory and aren't overly concerned about how the world works... ....I think a more accurate statement would be: ISTPs bring innovative problem-solving to their work.

Yeah, I don't think NTP and STP viewpoints are similar at all. The difference in presentation is also reflective of a difference in interpretation. There is a fundamental difference. I met quite a few INTPs in philosophy classes and while we can consistently intrigue each other in our thought patterns, trying to think in the other's shoe is simply impossible.

I think NTPs operate theories as an interplay of truths and untruths, I say that because sometimes my ENTP and INTP professors have to stop / get stuck on trying to formulate a coherent sentence even after they have already had all the information, as well as the conclusion in their head.

For me though, the coherence come first. I deal primarily with the thought patterns itself and so I normally wouldn't have that problem. That is also how I am able to come up with ridiculous conclusions that I don't really believe in myself, but the argument I made for it is logically valid. I think that is where "innovative theories" come from.
 

Poki

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Yeah, I don't think NTP and STP viewpoints are similar at all. The difference in presentation is also reflective of a difference in interpretation. There is a fundamental difference. I met quite a few INTPs in philosophy classes and while we can consistently intrigue each other in our thought patterns, trying to think in the other's shoe is simply impossible.

Internal logic itself is hard to follow unless you know everything the other person knows.
 

Poki

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Yeah, I don't think NTP and STP viewpoints are similar at all. The difference in presentation is also reflective of a difference in interpretation. There is a fundamental difference. I met quite a few INTPs in philosophy classes and while we can consistently intrigue each other in our thought patterns, trying to think in the other's shoe is simply impossible.

I think NTPs operate theories as an interplay of truths and untruths, I say that because sometimes my ENTP and INTP professors have to stop / get stuck on trying to formulate a coherent sentence even after they have already had all the information, as well as the conclusion in their head.

For me though, the coherence come first. I deal primarily with the thought patterns itself and so I normally wouldn't have that problem. That is also how I am able to come up with ridiculous conclusions that I don't really believe in myself, but the argument I made for it is logically valid. I think that is where "innovative theories" come from.

You confuse me with dealing primarily with the thought pattern itself and coherence coming first, not how the 2 relates , but how it plays out. Can you explain better.
 

Heinel

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Internal logic itself is hard to follow unless you know everything the other person knows.

Yeah, and in the case of NTP and STP. The very thing we perceive and know is different, hence incomprehensible without translation.

You confuse me with dealing primarily with the thought pattern itself and coherence coming first, not how the 2 relates , but how it plays out. Can you explain better.

It's like computer programming. There is a boolean True and False.
 

Poki

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It's like computer programming. There is a boolean True and False.

So do I take that as "I cant do it" or "dont want to put much thought into it"?
 

ChocolateMoose123

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The mind games were intriguing enough that I sort of had a sense of anticipation for what he'd try on me next and yet they were emotionally draining and stressful. We eventually just sort of stepped back from each other and called a truce.

:nice: There's a begrudging respect that goes along with this dynamic. If a truce is called or mutual understanding occurs this can be a great friendship/relationship.

Just have to say your posts in response to xSTP manipulation is spot on. Very good insight.

ISTP's are superb at manipulating if they choose to manipulate because they read cues superbly...although given their underlying drive to "problem-solve", they often lose interest as soon as the problem is solved...thus you would rarely see long-term relationship or emotional manipulation by an ISTP....and you would never see them manipulating others just for fun...that has no appeal to the ISTP at all.

:yes:
 

mcmartinez84

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Every type can be manipulative...that is a matter of choice/free will. There as many ways to be manipulative as there are types. "Manipulative" is not part of personality type...it's a moral state. THAT said, ISTP's are superb at manipulating if they choose to manipulate because they read cues superbly...although given their underlying drive to "problem-solve", they often lose interest as soon as the problem is solved...thus you would rarely see long-term relationship or emotional manipulation by an ISTP....and you would never see them manipulating others just for fun...that has no appeal to the ISTP at all.

Definitely true.

Yeah, I don't think NTP and STP viewpoints are similar at all. The difference in presentation is also reflective of a difference in interpretation. There is a fundamental difference. I met quite a few INTPs in philosophy classes and while we can consistently intrigue each other in our thought patterns, trying to think in the other's shoe is simply impossible.

I think NTPs operate theories as an interplay of truths and untruths, I say that because sometimes my ENTP and INTP professors have to stop / get stuck on trying to formulate a coherent sentence even after they have already had all the information, as well as the conclusion in their head.

For me though, the coherence come first. I deal primarily with the thought patterns itself and so I normally wouldn't have that problem. That is also how I am able to come up with ridiculous conclusions that I don't really believe in myself, but the argument I made for it is logically valid. I think that is where "innovative theories" come from.

I don't think they're similar either. I'm friends with an ENTP and we're just on totally different planes most of the time. Getting him to explain how something works or why he did something is worse than pulling teeth. We don't really understand each other in that regard. Also, he comes to some pretty weird conclusions from some facts, imo. He does things I would never do. I think of him as being fairly manipulative, to be quite honest. I don't think he's a bad guy, he just does stuff to produce an outcome that will benefit him. (...which you could say about anyone, but it seems like that his goal 100% of the time. "What do I have to do to get the result I want?" He can't just do stuff.) Seems like he does this for the fun of it a lot of the time...which I don't do (see above).
 

onemoretime

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"ISTPs generally have innovative theories about how the world works..."

ISTPs usually steer clear of theory and aren't overly concerned about how the world works... ....I think a more accurate statement would be: ISTPs bring innovative problem-solving to their work.

I disagree. The sticky point is where the theorizing comes from. The ISTPs I know are very keen to theorize about things in the here and now - why something currently is the way it is. While it may not be the INTP's natural forum of global theorizing, it's certainly making an educated guess as to the nature of things, beyond what's simply apparent. It's also why ISTPs tend to make good diagnosticians - they come to sound hypotheses about why a problem exists, and then modify that prediction as information comes in. INTPs do exactly the same thing, but in the abstract realm.

Yeah, I don't think NTP and STP viewpoints are similar at all. The difference in presentation is also reflective of a difference in interpretation. There is a fundamental difference. I met quite a few INTPs in philosophy classes and while we can consistently intrigue each other in our thought patterns, trying to think in the other's shoe is simply impossible.

That's interesting. One of my best friends is an ISTP, and he can follow exactly anything I theorize, provided I give the logical chain that leads to it. Same with my ESTP friend - he always jokes that he's a complete idiot, but he's not; he's got a master's degree. It's that he understands exactly what my ENFJ friend and I come up with as far as ideas go, but he wouldn't necessarily think of them in the first place. Ti understands how Ti works, no matter the personality type.

I think NTPs operate theories as an interplay of truths and untruths, I say that because sometimes my ENTP and INTP professors have to stop / get stuck on trying to formulate a coherent sentence even after they have already had all the information, as well as the conclusion in their head.

That's just the same as ESTPs and ISTPs when it comes to whatever their particular realms of interest are, however. The professors are constantly experimenting with a better way of conveying that information, while manipulating it in their head to try and understand it better. Much the same, the two STP types will often experiment in the physical realm (Larry Bird (ISTP par excellence) playing an entire game shooting only left handed to see if he could do it), either coming up with a better way of doing something or just trying to hone their own skill set. It's almost exactly the same line of thinking - just a different "magisterium", so to speak.

For me though, the coherence come first. I deal primarily with the thought patterns itself and so I normally wouldn't have that problem. That is also how I am able to come up with ridiculous conclusions that I don't really believe in myself, but the argument I made for it is logically valid. I think that is where "innovative theories" come from.

That's exactly how Ni works - taking a component of a situation, breaking it down into further components, manipulating them and finding the hidden pattern or truth within them.

I don't think they're similar either. I'm friends with an ENTP and we're just on totally different planes most of the time. Getting him to explain how something works or why he did something is worse than pulling teeth. We don't really understand each other in that regard. Also, he comes to some pretty weird conclusions from some facts, imo. He does things I would never do. I think of him as being fairly manipulative, to be quite honest. I don't think he's a bad guy, he just does stuff to produce an outcome that will benefit him. (...which you could say about anyone, but it seems like that his goal 100% of the time. "What do I have to do to get the result I want?" He can't just do stuff.) Seems like he does this for the fun of it a lot of the time...which I don't do (see above).

Are you sure that's because he's an ENTP, or maybe just because he's a jerk?
 
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