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  1. #61
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    ok, when I talk about manipulation I am talking more about indirect interaction, not direct interaction. Kinda like being vague instead of a direct route.

    edit: My goal is also more to manipulate a feeling, not so much an action. With something like fear the manipulation is to remove it, with love it is to figure out what makes someone feel loved. In this regard its not about what I want. This is where manipulation scares people and why I dont like the word manipulation tied to it.

    In response to what wilfrey said, yes I have tried to convince my dad to do something because that was keeping my mom from going with me, my wife, and my son to chuck e cheese. So I used my son as bait to try to convince my dad that my son really wanted him to go.
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #62
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    If you manipulate someone actions you are not allowing them free choice.
    Free will is something that you cannot take from someone.

    You confuse "presenting ALL the details" with "manipulation". You then back it up with the following statements that they dont always know what they want and that you are not necessarily trying to make them happy.
    I am not confused. You made some off-the-wall statement about happiness, so I responded in kind.

    Explain or give examples.
    you too.

    One example of the action you speak of would be yell at them so they think you dont like them to make them go away. We are thinking of 2 different forms of manipulation. Just because you arent aware of a different form does not mean it doesnt exist.
    I never made any assumption that manipulation cannot take more than one form. I don't think that example is anything close to what I've stated in any post in this thread. I must assume that you didn't read it thoroughly.


    The interaction part is where you lose track of things because you assume that first reaction was correct and every consecutive reaction Understand everything you say and everything you do has a cause and effect. Everything IS partially your fault the second you step your foot in the door.
    I like how you assume that I assume that a reaction can be "correct". I also like how you assume that I assume that the first reaction is "correct". I also like the way you assume that my primary reason for manipulation is to destroy the free will and happiness of those around me.

    I understand everything i say and do has a cause and effect, do you understand that everything you type and post has the same?
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  3. #63
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pettycure View Post
    The argument is that ESTPs are the ones who are able to manipulate people and enjoy poking at them and that ISTPs are not interested in people at all and are more interested in picking things apart.

    I disagree. I think you ISTPs are just as bad as we are. You just get away with it more often because you're sneaky little bastards.
    I think ESTP's are especially good at this. I would say that ESTP's possibly do this as they go along? It's seems instinctual for them.

    My friends and co-workers - even my boss - have been pretty impressed that my "reads" on people are so accurate, so we must be decent at it. The main difference is I think we need a bit more detachment. Even if it's a couple of minutes to watch or listen to someone. That's all it takes.

    Also, we don't do nearly as much as the ESTP does with the same info because it takes more energy from us to facilitate people. I get exhausted when it comes to just thinking about interacting with others to get what I want. I'd rather just find a way to get it myself.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  4. #64
    Senior Member Heinel's Avatar
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    It does make me wonder though, does every type do this? It looks like we pretty much agreed that Se and Ti works. I've heard people saying ENFJs (so Fe and Ni) also work. If that's the case I think INFPs who are expedient in Fe can do it too.

    But what about the other types?
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  5. #65
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curzon View Post
    Yes ISTPs are quite capable of doing so. But it is not likely that they would do it for the amusement. They (ISTPs) don't like to waste energy. But believe me when I say this ISTPs can surely get things done.

    But less likely to do it for the amusement.
    Sorry for posting twice in a row here but I initially posted to this thread just reading the OP. I then went back and read the thread.... Pretty entertaining.

    Anyway. Great word. I think "amusement" sums up an ESTP's underlying motive for interacting with people. I hate to use the word "manipulation" because of its negative connotation - especially with connection to ESTP's and this forum. So I reject your word and substitute my own!

    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post

    The correct way to do this as an ISTP is to test them and see how they respond. The goal is to see how they respond not what you got them to do.
    The second you take the latter thought it turns from observation to "manipulation". Once you begin to manipulate you steer the person away from what they want into what you want. Unless your wants are the same, you are setting them up to be unhappy.
    Like those first two sentences. Can I add that I'm more inclined to manipulate myself to get what I want rather than try to change the other person's mind or make or ask them to do anything.

    For instance, I was wanting to dirt bike ride as it had been a while. I knew of a guy that had a lot of connections in that area. I approached him and initiated conversation knowing that if I was friendly and if the conversation took itself there (which it would) he'd probably more than likely ask me to go riding. So I befriended him. He asked me and I went and made other good connections for riding.

    Would I have approached him if he couldn't help me out in that vein? Probably not. But I knew that he would offer his help. Is this manipulation?

    I'd like to think that I manipulated myself by being friendlier/accessible than I normally am.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Exceptions to be made in the cases where what they want isn't actually what will make them happy. Which is a tricky exception, because I'm prone to letting people do what they want. And who am I to say what will make them happy?

    In situations like this, I don't really operate on feel. I use arbitrary rules to make judgements, such as "try to get him to do this, if it doesn't work by the third time, than drop it."
    Everything about this post is Took the words right out of my mouth.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaybeLogic View Post
    Yeah, I watch people very closely and deduce their motivations. Once you know what motivates a person you can manipulate the balls out of them. I especially like to use it to subtly steer conversations in a certain direction, usually in an attempt to influence their actions. It's kind of like that Jedi knight thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaybeLogic View Post
    I understand everything i say and do has a cause and effect, do you understand that everything you type and post has the same?
    My response is an effect, above is the cause

    My examples I used are real life examples of when this was used to steer and "try" to manipulate the balls out of someones actions.

    Let me give you an example of my manipulation to get what I want. Its called doing things for others. You would be suprised at how much you can "manipulate" others by making them want to do it. The way I test how much manipulation or control I have is to ask them to do something that I want, but it will never be anything they dont like doing, just something they dont normally do. I also can tell by what they do that they dont normally do without my asking.

    You truly have someone by the "balls" when they do it without asking, now figure out how to get them to want to. I promise you its much harder then some Jedi Knight force, takes alot more effort. Thats why I dont like the term "manipulation", but it truly is "manipulation".
    Im out, its been fun

  7. #67
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    Why is this starting to read like an NT thread?

    *takes aspirin*

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by sLiPpY View Post
    Why is this starting to read like an NT thread?

    *takes aspirin*
    lol, are we argueing that much over theory, damn my Ni is showing, better tuck it back in no one look.
    Im out, its been fun

  9. #69
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  10. #70
    Senior Member countrygirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    Sorry for posting twice in a row here but I initially posted to this thread just reading the OP. I then went back and read the thread.... Pretty entertaining.

    Anyway. Great word. I think "amusement" sums up an ESTP's underlying motive for interacting with people. I hate to use the word "manipulation" because of its negative connotation - especially with connection to ESTP's and this forum. So I reject your word and substitute my own!



    Like those first two sentences. Can I add that I'm more inclined to manipulate myself to get what I want rather than try to change the other person's mind or make or ask them to do anything.

    For instance, I was wanting to dirt bike ride as it had been a while. I knew of a guy that had a lot of connections in that area. I approached him and initiated conversation knowing that if I was friendly and if the conversation took itself there (which it would) he'd probably more than likely ask me to go riding. So I befriended him. He asked me and I went and made other good connections for riding.

    Would I have approached him if he couldn't help me out in that vein? Probably not. But I knew that he would offer his help. Is this manipulation?

    I'd like to think that I manipulated myself by being friendlier/accessible than I normally am.



    Everything about this post is Took the words right out of my mouth.
    LOL. That's called using people. LOL Perhaps 'networking' would be a better word. However, I think ISTPs are more incline to make friends who have the same interest and activity. I've noticed that my husband's friends revolved around 4 wheeling. Since he doesn't 4 wheel anymore (too expensive and no place to go) his friends aren't around.

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