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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pettycure View Post
    The argument is that ESTPs are the ones who are able to manipulate people and enjoy poking at them and that ISTPs are not interested in people at all and are more interested in picking things apart.

    I disagree. I think you ISTPs are just as bad as we are. You just get away with it more often because you're sneaky little bastards.

    PS. There also seems to be this vast misconception that sensors are not capable of analytical thought. Tsk, tsk, you silly intuitives. We are. Our idea of analytical thought is just different from your idea of analytical thought.
    Yes ISTPs are quite capable of doing so. But it is not likely that they would do it for the amusement. They (ISTPs) don't like to waste energy. But believe me when I say this ISTPs can surely get things done.

    But less likely to do it for the amusement.

  2. #32
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pettycure View Post
    Quite a few intuitives I've talked to claimed that an analytical thought process is strictly an intuitive thing and that sensors don't really do it. I've also been told that sensors can't be manipulative because we don't have the right kind of mind to process information and figure people out, again claiming it's an intuitive thing. Whenever I bring it up a little disagreement chimes up from the intuitives in the room.

    Wrong, wrong, wrong. Sigh.
    Is a Ti thing, not a Ni thing. Ni fills the gaps.

    And ISTPs have Ti as their dominant function.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaybeLogic View Post
    This thread is def appreciated. I was thinking about this on Thanksgiving when I was accused of manipulating family members. I was trying to figure out a way to explain that manipulation isn't necessarily a bad thing. For instance, every parent manipulates their children so they won't:

    - get kidnapped, raped and killed(forcing your kids to watch a grainy vhs of "Adam" over and over again.)

    - won't get out of bed unnecessarily in the middle of the night(monster under the bed)

    Those are just a couple of examples related to my personal experience as a kid, but you get the idea.

    Yeah, I watch people very closely and deduce their motivations. Once you know what motivates a person you can manipulate the balls out of them. I especially like to use it to subtly steer conversations in a certain direction, usually in an attempt to influence their actions. It's kind of like that Jedi knight thing.
    You have alot to learn about analyzing people if this is how you use it. For one, the second you "manipulate" or influence their actions you just took control, you lost your observation, your reading of the person. What you are now reading is your influence over the person.

    The correct way to do this as an ISTP is to test them and see how they respond. The goal is to see how they respond not what you got them to do. The second you take the latter thought it turns from observation to "manipulation". Once you begin to manipulate you steer the person away from what they want into what you want. Unless your wants are the same, you are setting them up to be unhappy.

    The action you speak of would be like the Jedi anakin. Someone who is struggling internally to be happy and then uses others to try and make himself happy.

    I have witnessed this within someone before, while he was really good at manipulating people and getting them to do what he wanted, what he lacked was the ability to understand them. He became so focused on him being happy and trying to "manipulate" people that he constantly got screwed over.

    Its sad, but he basically kept surrounding himself with people like him, and he lost the ones who were not because of it.

    A true ISTP hase Se feeding Ti. We cannot close our eyes, we cannot keep ourselves from putting 2 and 2 together. This is not something we choose to do. This is such engrained in who we are that we must redirect our eyes as we cannot close them.
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    Hm, the ISTP I knew was pretty good at steering conversation, but I was definitely better. Let's face it, you ISTPs are way better at mechanical steering than we ESTPs, but we are still the cream of the crop when it comes to social maneuvering. People don't even suspect it with us. You guys still get sweaty palms in crowds sometimes.
    I would agree that ESTP's are superior butt suckers.

  5. #35
    PEST that STEPs on PETS stellar renegade's Avatar
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    Butt sucking = grovelling. No, it's much different than that. It's more like flattery, which is another term signifying an action that can be either good or bad.
    -stellar renegade
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    Badass Promoter ESTPs:
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    Butt sucking = grovelling. No, it's much different than that. It's more like flattery, which is another term signifying an action that can be either good or bad.
    lol, wasnt it an iSTP who recently posted his details trying to get some "sloppy seconds":yim_rolling_on_the_ Talk about groveling.

    sLiPpY - please do not talk about butt sucking as some people are surrounded by women and others surrounded by men. Look around you and see who surrounds you. I can see why you are afraid of groveling. If I was surrounded by men who I could joke with, laugh with, etc. I would be afraid to grovel:yim_rolling_on_the_ Dude, wake up smell the....um nevermind dont breathe until you open your yes, women smell much better then men :yim_rolling_on_the_
    Im out, its been fun

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by stellar renegade View Post
    Butt sucking = grovelling. No, it's much different than that. It's more like flattery, which is another term signifying an action that can be either good or bad.
    Nope grovelling is grovelling, flattery is butt sucking.

    Want that promotion? Go suck some butt!

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    lol, wasnt it an iSTP who recently posted his details trying to get some "sloppy seconds":yim_rolling_on_the_ Talk about groveling.

    sLiPpY - please do not talk about butt sucking as some people are surrounded by women and others surrounded by men. Look around you and see who surrounds you. I can see why you are afraid of groveling. If I was surrounded by men who I could joke with, laugh with, etc. I would be afraid to grovel:yim_rolling_on_the_ Dude, wake up smell the....um nevermind dont breathe until you open your yes, women smell much better then men :yim_rolling_on_the_
    Sometimes I don't get you dude. You're like an F on estrogen.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    The correct way to do this as an ISTP is to test them and see how they respond. The goal is to see how they respond not what you got them to do. The second you take the latter thought it turns from observation to "manipulation". Once you begin to manipulate you steer the person away from what they want into what you want. Unless your wants are the same, you are setting them up to be unhappy.
    Exceptions to be made in the cases where what they want isn't actually what will make them happy. Which is a tricky exception, because I'm prone to letting people do what they want. And who am I to say what will make them happy?

    In situations like this, I don't really operate on feel. I use arbitrary rules to make judgements, such as "try to get him to do this, if it doesn't work by the third time, than drop it."
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pettycure View Post
    Quite a few intuitives I've talked to claimed that an analytical thought process is strictly an intuitive thing and that sensors don't really do it. I've also been told that sensors can't be manipulative because we don't have the right kind of mind to process information and figure people out, again claiming it's an intuitive thing. Whenever I bring it up a little disagreement chimes up from the intuitives in the room.

    Wrong, wrong, wrong. Sigh.
    Utterly correct. Ti seems to be the defining element of analytical thought. My ISTP ex was exceptional analytically. However he chose overt dominance or ignoring the other person's requests rather than attempt to manipulate them. He's kinda lazy like that. Ti also had to be of immediate, practical interest.

    All of the ESTPs I work with are also highly analytical. They want to see data-typically sales numbers and are superb and lightening fast at analysis. However most are so Se based, they can miss the big picture. They are profoundly manipulative. I can "feel" it though.

    Maybe these ESTPs are weird-but they all keep lying. Three are "close friends" yet lie about each other, and to each other, and to me, all the time. They admit freely they lie and then seem confused when I catch them lying to me. They assume others "will just figure it out" and react accordingly to the lie that everyone knows is a lie. They also talk trash about each other and harshly criticize each other to me in one on one convos, yet claim to be "close".

    I distanced myself from them as I cant understand them. I care for them, but I cant figure out what to believe anymore-meaning I follow the default of believe nothing they say.

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