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  1. #111
    Senior Member McRumi's Avatar
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    "ISTPs generally have innovative theories about how the world works..."

    ISTPs usually steer clear of theory and aren't overly concerned about how the world works... ....I think a more accurate statement would be: ISTPs bring innovative problem-solving to their work.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Once again, I really think xSTPs and xNTPs have the closest viewpoints of the world to each other relative to other types. It's just the presentation that's completely different. For example, INTPs usually have hobbies they constantly seek to master and find solace in, ENTPs usually are complete experience junkies, ISTPs generally have innovative theories about how the world works, and ESTPs love to speak out about the things they know and the possibilities those things may have associated with them. It's just that those aren't necessarily the first thing the particular types show about themselves.
    This seems true. I can see INTPs playing with details(Si) just as easily as an ISTP can play with theory(Ni). It seems like our internal functions are things that we have this huge desire to understand and play with.
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  3. #113
    Senior Member Heinel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McRumi View Post
    "ISTPs generally have innovative theories about how the world works..."

    ISTPs usually steer clear of theory and aren't overly concerned about how the world works... ....I think a more accurate statement would be: ISTPs bring innovative problem-solving to their work.
    Yeah, I don't think NTP and STP viewpoints are similar at all. The difference in presentation is also reflective of a difference in interpretation. There is a fundamental difference. I met quite a few INTPs in philosophy classes and while we can consistently intrigue each other in our thought patterns, trying to think in the other's shoe is simply impossible.

    I think NTPs operate theories as an interplay of truths and untruths, I say that because sometimes my ENTP and INTP professors have to stop / get stuck on trying to formulate a coherent sentence even after they have already had all the information, as well as the conclusion in their head.

    For me though, the coherence come first. I deal primarily with the thought patterns itself and so I normally wouldn't have that problem. That is also how I am able to come up with ridiculous conclusions that I don't really believe in myself, but the argument I made for it is logically valid. I think that is where "innovative theories" come from.
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  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinel View Post
    Yeah, I don't think NTP and STP viewpoints are similar at all. The difference in presentation is also reflective of a difference in interpretation. There is a fundamental difference. I met quite a few INTPs in philosophy classes and while we can consistently intrigue each other in our thought patterns, trying to think in the other's shoe is simply impossible.
    Internal logic itself is hard to follow unless you know everything the other person knows.
    Im out, its been fun

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinel View Post
    Yeah, I don't think NTP and STP viewpoints are similar at all. The difference in presentation is also reflective of a difference in interpretation. There is a fundamental difference. I met quite a few INTPs in philosophy classes and while we can consistently intrigue each other in our thought patterns, trying to think in the other's shoe is simply impossible.

    I think NTPs operate theories as an interplay of truths and untruths, I say that because sometimes my ENTP and INTP professors have to stop / get stuck on trying to formulate a coherent sentence even after they have already had all the information, as well as the conclusion in their head.

    For me though, the coherence come first. I deal primarily with the thought patterns itself and so I normally wouldn't have that problem. That is also how I am able to come up with ridiculous conclusions that I don't really believe in myself, but the argument I made for it is logically valid. I think that is where "innovative theories" come from.
    You confuse me with dealing primarily with the thought pattern itself and coherence coming first, not how the 2 relates , but how it plays out. Can you explain better.
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #116
    Senior Member Heinel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Internal logic itself is hard to follow unless you know everything the other person knows.
    Yeah, and in the case of NTP and STP. The very thing we perceive and know is different, hence incomprehensible without translation.

    You confuse me with dealing primarily with the thought pattern itself and coherence coming first, not how the 2 relates , but how it plays out. Can you explain better.
    It's like computer programming. There is a boolean True and False.
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  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinel View Post
    It's like computer programming. There is a boolean True and False.
    So do I take that as "I cant do it" or "dont want to put much thought into it"?
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  8. #118
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pettycure View Post
    The mind games were intriguing enough that I sort of had a sense of anticipation for what he'd try on me next and yet they were emotionally draining and stressful. We eventually just sort of stepped back from each other and called a truce.
    There's a begrudging respect that goes along with this dynamic. If a truce is called or mutual understanding occurs this can be a great friendship/relationship.

    Just have to say your posts in response to xSTP manipulation is spot on. Very good insight.

    Quote Originally Posted by McRumi View Post
    ISTP's are superb at manipulating if they choose to manipulate because they read cues superbly...although given their underlying drive to "problem-solve", they often lose interest as soon as the problem is solved...thus you would rarely see long-term relationship or emotional manipulation by an ISTP....and you would never see them manipulating others just for fun...that has no appeal to the ISTP at all.
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  9. #119
    Senior Member mcmartinez84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McRumi View Post
    Every type can be manipulative...that is a matter of choice/free will. There as many ways to be manipulative as there are types. "Manipulative" is not part of personality type...it's a moral state. THAT said, ISTP's are superb at manipulating if they choose to manipulate because they read cues superbly...although given their underlying drive to "problem-solve", they often lose interest as soon as the problem is solved...thus you would rarely see long-term relationship or emotional manipulation by an ISTP....and you would never see them manipulating others just for fun...that has no appeal to the ISTP at all.
    Definitely true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinel View Post
    Yeah, I don't think NTP and STP viewpoints are similar at all. The difference in presentation is also reflective of a difference in interpretation. There is a fundamental difference. I met quite a few INTPs in philosophy classes and while we can consistently intrigue each other in our thought patterns, trying to think in the other's shoe is simply impossible.

    I think NTPs operate theories as an interplay of truths and untruths, I say that because sometimes my ENTP and INTP professors have to stop / get stuck on trying to formulate a coherent sentence even after they have already had all the information, as well as the conclusion in their head.

    For me though, the coherence come first. I deal primarily with the thought patterns itself and so I normally wouldn't have that problem. That is also how I am able to come up with ridiculous conclusions that I don't really believe in myself, but the argument I made for it is logically valid. I think that is where "innovative theories" come from.
    I don't think they're similar either. I'm friends with an ENTP and we're just on totally different planes most of the time. Getting him to explain how something works or why he did something is worse than pulling teeth. We don't really understand each other in that regard. Also, he comes to some pretty weird conclusions from some facts, imo. He does things I would never do. I think of him as being fairly manipulative, to be quite honest. I don't think he's a bad guy, he just does stuff to produce an outcome that will benefit him. (...which you could say about anyone, but it seems like that his goal 100% of the time. "What do I have to do to get the result I want?" He can't just do stuff.) Seems like he does this for the fun of it a lot of the time...which I don't do (see above).
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  10. #120
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McRumi View Post
    "ISTPs generally have innovative theories about how the world works..."

    ISTPs usually steer clear of theory and aren't overly concerned about how the world works... ....I think a more accurate statement would be: ISTPs bring innovative problem-solving to their work.
    I disagree. The sticky point is where the theorizing comes from. The ISTPs I know are very keen to theorize about things in the here and now - why something currently is the way it is. While it may not be the INTP's natural forum of global theorizing, it's certainly making an educated guess as to the nature of things, beyond what's simply apparent. It's also why ISTPs tend to make good diagnosticians - they come to sound hypotheses about why a problem exists, and then modify that prediction as information comes in. INTPs do exactly the same thing, but in the abstract realm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinel View Post
    Yeah, I don't think NTP and STP viewpoints are similar at all. The difference in presentation is also reflective of a difference in interpretation. There is a fundamental difference. I met quite a few INTPs in philosophy classes and while we can consistently intrigue each other in our thought patterns, trying to think in the other's shoe is simply impossible.
    That's interesting. One of my best friends is an ISTP, and he can follow exactly anything I theorize, provided I give the logical chain that leads to it. Same with my ESTP friend - he always jokes that he's a complete idiot, but he's not; he's got a master's degree. It's that he understands exactly what my ENFJ friend and I come up with as far as ideas go, but he wouldn't necessarily think of them in the first place. Ti understands how Ti works, no matter the personality type.

    I think NTPs operate theories as an interplay of truths and untruths, I say that because sometimes my ENTP and INTP professors have to stop / get stuck on trying to formulate a coherent sentence even after they have already had all the information, as well as the conclusion in their head.
    That's just the same as ESTPs and ISTPs when it comes to whatever their particular realms of interest are, however. The professors are constantly experimenting with a better way of conveying that information, while manipulating it in their head to try and understand it better. Much the same, the two STP types will often experiment in the physical realm (Larry Bird (ISTP par excellence) playing an entire game shooting only left handed to see if he could do it), either coming up with a better way of doing something or just trying to hone their own skill set. It's almost exactly the same line of thinking - just a different "magisterium", so to speak.

    For me though, the coherence come first. I deal primarily with the thought patterns itself and so I normally wouldn't have that problem. That is also how I am able to come up with ridiculous conclusions that I don't really believe in myself, but the argument I made for it is logically valid. I think that is where "innovative theories" come from.
    That's exactly how Ni works - taking a component of a situation, breaking it down into further components, manipulating them and finding the hidden pattern or truth within them.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcmartinez84 View Post
    I don't think they're similar either. I'm friends with an ENTP and we're just on totally different planes most of the time. Getting him to explain how something works or why he did something is worse than pulling teeth. We don't really understand each other in that regard. Also, he comes to some pretty weird conclusions from some facts, imo. He does things I would never do. I think of him as being fairly manipulative, to be quite honest. I don't think he's a bad guy, he just does stuff to produce an outcome that will benefit him. (...which you could say about anyone, but it seems like that his goal 100% of the time. "What do I have to do to get the result I want?" He can't just do stuff.) Seems like he does this for the fun of it a lot of the time...which I don't do (see above).
    Are you sure that's because he's an ENTP, or maybe just because he's a jerk?

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