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  1. #101
    Not Your Therapist Sinmara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    Man. That sounds familiar. I once described the ESTP I dated as "a worthy adversary" to my friend. To which she responded, " ...this is someone you like, right?"

    Yep.
    "A worthy adversary"...and thus desribes my teenage life with my ISTP father. The mind games were intriguing enough that I sort of had a sense of anticipation for what he'd try on me next and yet they were emotionally draining and stressful. We eventually just sort of stepped back from each other and called a truce.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pettycure View Post
    The bolded part doesn't quite make sense from the standpoint of someone trying to maneuver another person...when someone doesn't respond in the way you anticipated or wanted, you don't get upset and argue that your request is logical, you either do damage control and try to deflect from your mistake or go with it and try again from a different angle. What you've said doesn't sound right at all.

    Either that, or you interprited an ESTP behavior as deceptive when they were being honest and got upset at being falsely accused.
    This happens when they think (feel) they are falsely accused when really they are called out on structural and unconscious (manipulative) tendencies they are unaware of.

  3. #103
    Not Your Therapist Sinmara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    This happens when they think (feel) they are falsely accused when really they are called out on structural and unconscious (manipulative) tendencies they are unaware of.
    The maniulative tendencies aren't unconscious. We're all very aware that we're doing it when we're doing it because it takes a conscious mapping out of reactions and plans As and Bs and such. Like I said, either the person you've dealt with is a horrible liar and shouldn't be compared to the rest of us or they really were being honest. I've often been accused of being sneaky when I was being quite blunt and upfront because I behave the same way in each case and most people can't tell the difference. That could even be an explanation for what happened.

  4. #104
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pettycure View Post
    The maniulative tendencies aren't unconscious. We're all very aware that we're doing it when we're doing it because it takes a conscious mapping out of reactions and plans As and Bs and such. Like I said, either the person you've dealt with is a horrible liar and shouldn't be compared to the rest of us or they really were being honest. I've often been accused of being sneaky when I was being quite blunt and upfront because I behave the same way in each case and most people can't tell the difference. That could even be an explanation for what happened.
    You're only aware of what you are aware. To follow your own circular logic.

    A tendency is not an action. I'm not talking about concrete instances of smooth talking, I'm talking about underlying patterns in behaviour and thinking style...in personality I suppose. They make for manipulation (not naturally defined (and I argue recognised) as such by ESTPs) on a whole other level.

  5. #105
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    You're only aware of what you are aware. To follow your own circular logic.

    A tendency is not an action. I'm not talking about concrete instances of smooth talking, I'm talking about underlying patterns in behaviour and thinking style...in personality I suppose. They make for manipulation (not naturally defined (and I argue recognised) as such by ESTPs) on a whole other level.
    I'll apologize for all the ESTPs that ever manipulated you in any way. We are very, very sorry and hope you can forgive us. We are losing sleep over hurting your ILAC.
    --------------------
    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    I'll apologize for all the ESTPs that ever manipulated you in any way. We are very, very sorry and hope you can forgive us. We are losing sleep over hurting your ILAC.
    UyTuun, See that sounded sincere to me. Any sense of manipulation may just be some kind of insecurity on your part.
    Im out, its been fun

  7. #107
    Not Your Therapist Sinmara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    You're only aware of what you are aware. To follow your own circular logic.

    A tendency is not an action. I'm not talking about concrete instances of smooth talking, I'm talking about underlying patterns in behaviour and thinking style...in personality I suppose. They make for manipulation (not naturally defined (and I argue recognised) as such by ESTPs) on a whole other level.
    See, this is where I think the SP/NJ disconnect is coming into play. I'll try to explain again, quite sincerely, even though I'm sure you'll tell me I'm full of crap because your mind just plain works differently than mine.

    xSTPs tend to be very self-aware. We generally don't have many unconscious behaviors or unacknowledged motivations because just as we are constantly categorizing and analyzing the world around us, we're also constantly doing the same to ourselves and trouble-shooting and picking ourselves apart in our own heads. I once told a guy I was dating when he pointed out what he thought would be a dramatic revelation about me and I just shrugged and admitted to it without missing a beat, "Just because I don't admit a flaw about myself to you doesn't mean I'm blindly ignorant of it. I know exactly what's going on in my head." Again, not to speak in absolutes, because I'm sure there are some dumbass xSTPs out there who need a boot up their asses, but this is how most xSTPs are.

    We don't do unintentional manipulation. It's just not how we think or operate. If you see one of us trying to extend our influence over another person, even if it's over something small and inconsequential, we've already thought ahead to the endgame with a few contingency plans in our back pocket for just in case. That is how the mind of an xSTP works -- when it comes to dealing with other people, it's all at the forefront. Just because we don't pipe up and declare our intentions doesn't mean we're unaware. We are conscious of what we're doing every single time. You may not see this because we tend to play things very close to the chest and don't like to reveal too many of our trade secrets.

    Manipulation is not the natural, constant state of xSTPs. The natural state of an xSTP is to be blunt and honest, often to the point of sounding tactless. (I've often been told I have all the tact of a blunt axe. ;D) It's easier to be honest than it is to have your manipulation switch flipped to the ON position all the time. It's just not practical. We can't always be strategizing in our heads and forecasting the next move; that's a skill we turn on and off as needed. If someone asks us our opinion, we're more likely to tell the god's honest truth than say what they want to hear. There have to be other factors in play to make us behave contrary to what comes naturally to us.

    So, to say that xSTPs are always manipulative to some degree without realizing it because that is the constant and natural pattern of thought we always use isn't really accurate.

    I welcome the other xSTPs to affirm or dispute this, but I'm pretty sure I have it right.

  8. #108
    Senior Member mcmartinez84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pettycure View Post
    lots of stuff right above me...
    +1 Confirmed
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  9. #109
    Senior Member McRumi's Avatar
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    Every type can be manipulative...that is a matter of choice/free will. There as many ways to be manipulative as there are types. "Manipulative" is not part of personality type...it's a moral state. THAT said, ISTP's are superb at manipulating if they choose to manipulate because they read cues superbly...although given their underlying drive to "problem-solve", they often lose interest as soon as the problem is solved...thus you would rarely see long-term relationship or emotional manipulation by an ISTP....and you would never see them manipulating others just for fun...that has no appeal to the ISTP at all.

  10. #110
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pettycure View Post
    See, this is where I think the SP/NJ disconnect is coming into play. I'll try to explain again, quite sincerely, even though I'm sure you'll tell me I'm full of crap because your mind just plain works differently than mine.

    xSTPs tend to be very self-aware. We generally don't have many unconscious behaviors or unacknowledged motivations because just as we are constantly categorizing and analyzing the world around us, we're also constantly doing the same to ourselves and trouble-shooting and picking ourselves apart in our own heads. I once told a guy I was dating when he pointed out what he thought would be a dramatic revelation about me and I just shrugged and admitted to it without missing a beat, "Just because I don't admit a flaw about myself to you doesn't mean I'm blindly ignorant of it. I know exactly what's going on in my head." Again, not to speak in absolutes, because I'm sure there are some dumbass xSTPs out there who need a boot up their asses, but this is how most xSTPs are.

    We don't do unintentional manipulation. It's just not how we think or operate. If you see one of us trying to extend our influence over another person, even if it's over something small and inconsequential, we've already thought ahead to the endgame with a few contingency plans in our back pocket for just in case. That is how the mind of an xSTP works -- when it comes to dealing with other people, it's all at the forefront. Just because we don't pipe up and declare our intentions doesn't mean we're unaware. We are conscious of what we're doing every single time. You may not see this because we tend to play things very close to the chest and don't like to reveal too many of our trade secrets.

    Manipulation is not the natural, constant state of xSTPs. The natural state of an xSTP is to be blunt and honest, often to the point of sounding tactless. (I've often been told I have all the tact of a blunt axe. ;D) It's easier to be honest than it is to have your manipulation switch flipped to the ON position all the time. It's just not practical. We can't always be strategizing in our heads and forecasting the next move; that's a skill we turn on and off as needed. If someone asks us our opinion, we're more likely to tell the god's honest truth than say what they want to hear. There have to be other factors in play to make us behave contrary to what comes naturally to us.

    So, to say that xSTPs are always manipulative to some degree without realizing it because that is the constant and natural pattern of thought we always use isn't really accurate.

    I welcome the other xSTPs to affirm or dispute this, but I'm pretty sure I have it right.
    Once again, I really think xSTPs and xNTPs have the closest viewpoints of the world to each other relative to other types. It's just the presentation that's completely different. For example, INTPs usually have hobbies they constantly seek to master and find solace in, ENTPs usually are complete experience junkies, ISTPs generally have innovative theories about how the world works, and ESTPs love to speak out about the things they know and the possibilities those things may have associated with them. It's just that those aren't necessarily the first thing the particular types show about themselves.

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