[ISFP] ISFP and Goals

[IZthe411]

It kinda takes the fun out of it if everything is laid out from the beginning. You have to make mistakes and play around and tinker as you go and see what works (thinking about it, that play around part sounds terrible in the case of marriage ).

NO!!!!!!

 

[IZthe411]

How this pretty much works is, if she truly wants to be balanced, then things will work out fine. You could help her in this area but she has to want to be helped. The thing is though when people want to be balanced they will state it so I can understand your concern that she hasn't. If she doesn't want to be balanced, then you're just buying time. Same goes for you. I'm sure you need balancing too.

There is another option to balanced individuals though, and that is two people who compliments each other. It's like, where one person is weak the other is strong, and together, as a team, they have the spectrum covered. You defer to the other in the areas that they are stronger than you. This requires a higher level of trust, dependency, humility and cooperation. My guess is you don't want that though. It seems like you wish for her to be balanced, and you to be balanced and you two go through life together as balanced individuals.

I like the compliment approach, and that's what I'm trying to figure out.


See, I already own a house, and pretty much have things laid out. I want my wife to be able to come in and maintain what I already have going, not throw it off. I guess that sounds controlling, but I've worked hard to get where I am, and I want someone who is as dedicated as I am to making things work. That doesn't mean she has to work the same hours as I do, but I want to get the feeling from my girl that she's about it as much as I am.

I wish she was better at explaining herself- that also confuses me. She talks very dramatic, and really when she does express herself, she says it's how she's feeling at the moment, and not overall. That confuses the crap outta me, as I'm a very literal person, so I take what you are saying at face value.

I know, I know women do that a lot, they aren't direct, but it's soooo confusing and crazy.

 

[wolfy]

Not being committed to goals is not really type specific. Approach to goals is, or could be. Have you tried books on goal setting? I think a more general approach would be more useful. If she wants to that is, you can't change people.

 

[sunshinebrighter]

I wish she was better at explaining herself- that also confuses me. She talks very dramatic, and really when she does express herself, she says it's how she's feeling at the moment, and not overall. That confuses the crap outta me, as I'm a very literal person, so I take what you are saying at face value

It's suck that she does not recognize your need to know what direction you two are going. Her lack of goals or efforts toward one is making you doubt whether she is willing to put effort in the marriage. You're feeling insecure.

I think she honestly does not understand how serious this is to you. She probably thinks that you are overreacting and just waiting around until you get over it. Many of the earlier posts shows that many other SPs feels the same and questioning "What is the big deal? You control freak."

The question now is how to figure out a way to make her understand the seriousness of this. You two have talked about it before and she seems to have already made her mind up. How should you bring up this topic again? How to make her open up more?

I suggest instead of asking her "What are your goals?" ask her many detailed questions "How many kids do you want?" "How do you want to raise them?" "Will she want to be a stay home mom or keep working?" "What type of vacations she wants to take?" "Does she want to live a comfy life and willing to work for it?"

These questions are easier to answer and you can piece them together on what type of life she wants. It will help open her up.

 

[IZthe411]

It's suck that she does not recognize your need to know what direction you two are going. Her lack of goals or efforts toward one is making you doubt whether she is willing to put effort in the marriage. You're feeling insecure.

I think she honestly does not understand how serious this is to you. She probably thinks that you are overreacting and just waiting around until you get over it. Many of the earlier posts shows that many other SPs feels the same and questioning "What is the big deal? You control freak."

The question now is how to figure out a way to make her understand the seriousness of this. You two have talked about it before and she seems to have already made her mind up. How should you bring up this topic again? How to make her open up more?

I suggest instead of asking her "What are your goals?" ask her many detailed questions "How many kids do you want?" "How do you want to raise them?" "Will she want to be a stay home mom or keep working?" "What type of vacations she wants to take?" "Does she want to live a comfy life and willing to work for it?"

These questions are easier to answer and you can piece them together on what type of life she wants. It will help open her up.

WOW!!!! This is spot on! You are on point about my feelings on the matter.

Yes, I'm sure to like minded people my feelings about this are cold and unloving. But it's not something that I will get over or just accept. I can't. It's very important to me, and I need a sense that she and I are on the same page.

It's strange. Academically and career wise, I've been very successful- and yet when it comes to relationships I couldn't even have figured this simple yet powerful move out.

I'm going to figure out the questions I need to ask and take it from there. Thank you thank you thank you!!

 

[brainheart]

No offense, but I'm having a hard time seeing why you are with her. It doesn't seem like you know who she is, minus the things that bug you. You say you are a good balance, but I'm not seeing it in a single thing you have said. You joked earlier that she's said before that she thinks you want her to be her clone. Well, I'm kind of seeing that, too.

In Keirsey speak, what you seem to be doing is conducting a Pygmalion Project- trying to turn her into you vs appreciating and loving her for who she is. If you are incapable of doing this, I'm not so sure you two should be together- based on the limited knowledge I have, of course. You seem to perceive her as a little girl vs a thirty year old woman.

"I want my wife to be able to come in and maintain what I already have going, not throw it off." Maybe you should hire a maid, not commit yourself to a lifetime partnership with a fellow human being?

She probably isn't asserting herself or voicing her wants or needs because she wants to please you and you have such strong opinions, so why not just go with the flow? I know I do this a lot of the time, so as to keep the peace. (Or to get the person to stop talking about it.)

Hopefully asking questions as sunshine brighter proposed will help. At the very least it will allow you to know whether you are right for each other. I wish you luck.

 

[IZthe411]

No offense, but I'm having a hard time seeing why you are with her. It doesn't seem like you know who she is, minus the things that bug you. You say you are a good balance, but I'm not seeing it in a single thing you have said. You joked earlier that she's said before that she thinks you want her to be her clone. Well, I'm kind of seeing that, too.

In Keirsey speak, what you seem to be doing is conducting a Pygmalion Project- trying to turn her into you vs appreciating and loving her for who she is. If you are incapable of doing this, I'm not so sure you two should be together- based on the limited knowledge I have, of course. You seem to perceive her as a little girl vs a thirty year old woman.

"I want my wife to be able to come in and maintain what I already have going, not throw it off." Maybe you should hire a maid, not commit yourself to a lifetime partnership with a fellow human being?

She probably isn't asserting herself or voicing her wants or needs because she wants to please you and you have such strong opinions, so why not just go with the flow? I know I do this a lot of the time, so as to keep the peace. (Or to get the person to stop talking about it.)

Hopefully asking questions as sunshine brighter proposed will help. At the very least it will allow you to know whether you are right for each other. I wish you luck.

I don't want a clone of myself- I'm not trying to turn her into me. I want to know what she wants out of life how she plans to get there.

I don't want to control people. I just want confidence that if I entrust her with some part of my life, she will be able to take care of it. For instance, if she is the one who pays the bills, I don't care if she writes checks or does it online- as long as it's done on time.

I wouldn't expect so much support from most people on this side, because you are like her. You're not seeing things from my perspective, and you are taking what I say as not loving her. I do love her, but in this one area, which is very important to me, I'm not getting the feeling (I'm using the F word) that she's there with me.

I've never assaulted her character. She's a sweet girl and would be good for me, but I haven't got a good read from her on this issue. That's all.

 

[brainheart]

No, I'm trying to see things from your perspective. And I have a lot of experience with your perspective, considering my dad is the same type as yours and I know how it works. Maybe I'm not understanding what you are trying to get at. What issue? The goal issue? Because it sounds like your goal is to be married to someone who will do things the way you do them. So that's what gives me pause. Because that is not a good way to start a marriage. A marriage is about both perspectives coming together, working together. So she's going to have her own way of doing things, as you do, and you both will have to sacrifice, let some principles you hold dear go in order for it to work.

We know so little of your gf because we are getting only your perspective, not hers. So I guess maybe I should just stop talking because I have no advice to give you aside from the fact it sounds like you have a lot of communicating you need to do with each other before you should even consider getting married.

 

[sunshinebrighter]

I've never assaulted her character. She's a sweet girl and would be good for me, but I haven't got a good read from her on this issue. That's all.

I agree. You definitely want to work with her and do not want to change who she is.

It is unfair to expect you change for her and her not to change for you. With a potential marriage you both have to learn to compromise. Like you said before it's not the actually goal that is important. It her showing that she can be serious. I certainly do not want to marry someone who acts like they don't care 24/7. It would hurt my feelings when something important comes up. What you are asking her to do is not a lot.

I think it's great that you are trying to understand her. You are trying to make her feel more comfortable. You being here and trying to make it work shows that you care.

 

[Julie1962]

It's not about climbing the corporate ladder. I don't need a woman who is in corporate America. She does work. I was talking about things outside of work, really.

But this comment here probably has impacted me the most. If she wants kids and a family, that's fine. If that's your goal, that's fine. But again, I want to hear it. The more I think about it, she may be thinking that those are a given in a relationship. But I'm not a mind reader, either.

I just want someone who knows what they want and have put some thought into it. If all you can come up with is you want to be happy, with no substance around what happiness entails, it doesn't leave me feeling all warm and fuzzy.

Thanks.

What did you mean by this line: And if she is anything like me she won't show her stubborn or assertive side until the ring is on the finger!?

I think that is the problem with a relationship between two introverts, there is not enough communication going on. I knew when I was dating my ENFJ husband what he wanted for his future. I then had time to reflect if I wanted the same things in life so by the time he proposed to me, 5 months into relationship, I knew we were on the same track.

I'm glad you are putting alot of thought into this before proposing. I think you may have to take the lead in communicating now .. hinting around about what you see for your future and see how she reacts. If she doesn't know what she wants, at least you may get her thinking about it now.

LOL .. by that comment I meant that ISFPs, who are like me, tend to be shy, passive and insecure in a relationship. I wasn't able to show my more stubborn and/or assertive side until I was very secure in my relationship with husband which was after we got married. I felt more confident to state what I wanted or needed then.

Good luck!

 

[IZthe411]

No, I'm trying to see things from your perspective. And I have a lot of experience with your perspective, considering my dad is the same type as yours and I know how it works. Maybe I'm not understanding what you are trying to get at. What issue? The goal issue? Because it sounds like your goal is to be married to someone who will do things the way you do them. So that's what gives me pause. Because that is not a good way to start a marriage. A marriage is about both perspectives coming together, working together. So she's going to have her own way of doing things, as you do, and you both will have to sacrifice, let some principles you hold dear go in order for it to work.

We know so little of your gf because we are getting only your perspective, not hers. So I guess maybe I should just stop talking because I have no advice to give you aside from the fact it sounds like you have a lot of communicating you need to do with each other before you should even consider getting married.

It is communication, I think our styles are very different and cause some issues. But again, you don't understand where I'm coming from, and while you are trying to see things from my perspective, you can't. Your experience with your father, for one, is over a very long period of time, where you really had no choice but to deal with him. My situation involves 2 independednt adults, who are pretty much set in their ways, and who love each other and are trying to work out a difference. A parent/child's relationship is different from a man/woman intimate relationship. The goal issue is symbolic of me trying to get an idea of where she wants to go in life. Goals are a basis of what type of future you want, and based on her communication I don't get a good feeling of what she wants and where she wants to go.

I'm not dissing you, or what you said. I appreciate the input, but you have incorrectly concluded on me and my relationship.

 

[IZthe411]

I agree. You definitely want to work with her and do not want to change who she is.

It is unfair to expect you change for her and her not to change for you. With a potential marriage you both have to learn to compromise. Like you said before it's not the actually goal that is important. It her showing that she can be serious. I certainly do not want to marry someone who acts like they don't care 24/7. It would hurt my feelings when something important comes up. What you are asking her to do is not a lot.

I think it's great that you are trying to understand her. You are trying to make her feel more comfortable. You being here and trying to make it work shows that you care.

And what's bolded here is what no one seems to see. I have asked myself many times should I end it, but there's no reason to end it. Nobody's doing anything wrong. A relationship is work and it takes time and effort, and that's what I'm giving it.

 

[brainheart]

I'm not dissing you, or what you said. I appreciate the input, but you have incorrectly concluded on me and my relationship.

Good, I'm glad. Sometimes I'm pleased to be proven wrong.

And I mean it when I wish you luck. And I do think there are some miscommunication issues with ISTJs and INFPs so I can see why we've had some of that. It's like that with my dad, too, which I know isn't the same as a marriage. We both try but there are certain things we just can't communicate to each other effectively, no matter what. But I've found if we talk about the 'safe Si' stuff- you know, we both like old buildings, identifying birds and plants, going on walks and noticing things, period PBS mystery adaptations, stuff like that... we're good.

I'll be sending good vibes your way.

 

[IZthe411]

I think that is the problem with a relationship between two introverts, there is not enough communication going on. I knew when I was dating my ENFJ husband what he wanted for his future. I then had time to reflect if I wanted the same things in life so by the time he proposed to me, 5 months into relationship, I knew we were on the same track.

I'm glad you are putting alot of thought into this before proposing. I think you may have to take the lead in communicating now .. hinting around about what you see for your future and see how she reacts. If she doesn't know what she wants, at least you may get her thinking about it now.

LOL .. by that comment I meant that ISFPs, who are like me, tend to be shy, passive and insecure in a relationship. I wasn't able to show my more stubborn and/or assertive side until I was very secure in my relationship with husband which was after we got married. I felt more confident to state what I wanted or needed then.

Good luck!

Thank you for understanding my perspective. I've asked her does she think the fact we are both introverts make the communication thing a little harder. She doesn't think so, but then again, she's doesn't study and is not as observant as I am. I think it does, since if I ask a question, it would be nice to get a more lengthy response. BUT, the fact that we are both 'I's is not a reason to break up.

I don't want to direct her or control her. I just want to get a feeling that we are both on the same page. I do see I could be a little more creative in how I go about it.

Concerning your last comment: I think for her a ring is that confirmation of our relationship status. She hasn't expressed it to me verbally, but my expectation is that she will become a different person. And because she doesn't have a ring yet, in my mind I feel she's playing it safe- not in the sense that she's trying to go along under the radar, but not rocking the boat too much. She says she's not, but I get that sense. I wish it wasn't that way, because I want to see that assertive side NOW. It's not stopping me from pursuing her, because I love her and am willing to deal with it should it happen, but know if she does a 180 on me after the ring, I'm going to call her on it.

 

[IZthe411]

Good, I'm glad. Sometimes I'm pleased to be proven wrong.

And I mean it when I wish you luck. And I do think there are some miscommunication issues with ISTJs and INFPs so I can see why we've had some of that. It's like that with my dad, too, which I know isn't the same as a marriage. We both try but there are certain things we just can't communicate to each other effectively, no matter what. But I've found if we talk about the 'safe Si' stuff- you know, we both like old buildings, identifying birds and plants, going on walks and noticing things, period PBS mystery adaptations, stuff like that... we're good.

I'll be sending good vibes your way.

Thanks.

As an INFP you and my girl both share that dominant Fi. And some of your arguments sound like something she would say, especially the clone thing.

But one thing is for sure, she knows I'm genuine and I want this to work. That's why she's toughing it out with me.

 

[sunshinebrighter]

And what's bolded here is what no one seems to see. I have asked myself many times should I end it, but there's no reason to end it. Nobody's doing anything wrong. A relationship is work and it takes time and effort, and that's what I'm giving it.

Nobody is doing anything wrong huh? If everything was fine and dandy you wouldn't be here.

A lack of communication is a good reason to break up. You questioning many times whether to break up with a girl who you may marry is not good. Now I'm not suggesting that you break up now. Keep trying to connect with her BUT if she still does not get it and she does not seem to want to get it then I suggest breaking up.

You are not that young anymore. *Assuming you are around your girlfriends age* Don't waste your time on something that is not willing to work with you.

 

[Giggly]

I'm thinking that you're afraid that she doesn't love you for you.

 

[LeafAndSky]

Hi IZthe411,

This is my first post here (and I guess I should go do an intro post, will get to that later, I'm writing this one at a library).

It looks like you got much good feedback and a workable way to move forward (breaking your concern about compatible goals into detailed questions). So the issue you asked about is probably solved to your satisfaction as far as this thread goes.

But reading this thread bought up a few concerns, and I'd like to share them with you. Take whatever you think applies, leave the rest. Of course!

You wrote, "But if she works part time or not at all, I do expect the house to look a certain way at all times, and food should be cooked. I hate eating out unnecesssarily and if she's not doing that, what is she doing?"

And you wrote, "See, I already own a house, and pretty much have things laid out. I want my wife to be able to come in and maintain what I already have going, not throw it off."

I was in a 19-year marriage that as far as I could tell was ISTJ male and ISFP female (me). Who filed for divorce? Me. While I originally appreciated our differences and how they worked together, the relationship ultimately wore me down. I tried, tried hard to stay, for years. We have kids, teens.

Communication is key, and I see that you are willing to work on this on an ongoing basis. That's absolutely wonderful. Please don't let up after rings are on fingers!

Some 'heads-up' things to remember as you move forward with this woman, if you do:

Marriage is a partnership. Equals. Equals is a critical concept.

Unilateral decision-making on your part will damage the relationship. What I mean is things like: "I do expect the house to look a certain way at all times." Do you know yet how she would like the house to look? If your preferences differ in some areas, can you reach a compromise? (Add kids to the equation and can you reach a second compromise?) This is just one example; any unilateral decision-making that affects the other person is going to be a problem, things like changing her health insurance without discussion.

If you make more money than she does, will you nonetheless make financial decisions as equals? I don't mean that you both have to agree on details of a mortgage; she may be happy with you handling the 'high finance.' But what about preferences on how much is available for vacations and how much to save and at what level of risk? If you see things differently now or later on, can you both compromise? Will you have the accounts and assets in both partners' names? Having money in one person's name only is very damaging to a partnership. So is 'giving' your wife an 'allowance.'

She will likely appreciate your dependability and financial contributions very much, especially if you have kids. You may feel you are showing love through these things, and you are, from your perspective. But can you also show her affection other than sexual? Hugs, touches, playfulness. Can you make regular time for her in your structured life? These are the things that bond people; this is not trivial.

Without the above, she may eventually come to feel that she is disliked for who she is, and viewed as inferior or a possession, and feel that although you want a family, you do not want a relationship. If you truly do like who she is, and do truly want to spend time in her company, let her know in ways that she understands -- not solely in ways that you understand.

You two are very different people. If she ever asks for marriage counseling, jump right in. Do it even if insurance doesn't cover it. I do think such a pairing could work, but only if there is ongoing effort over the long haul.

In fact, could you two, if the relationship continues, eventually look into taking a premarital counseling course of some kind, something reputable and well-done?

I wish you happiness and fulfillment.

 

[IZthe411]

Nobody is doing anything wrong huh? If everything was fine and dandy you wouldn't be here.

A lack of communication is a good reason to break up. You questioning many times whether to break up with a girl who you may marry is not good. Now I'm not suggesting that you break up now. Keep trying to connect with her BUT if she still does not get it and she does not seem to want to get it then I suggest breaking up.

You are not that young anymore. *Assuming you are around your girlfriends age* Don't waste your time on something that is not willing to work with you.

I agree with that.

That's why I'm trying to avoid saying a lack of communciation. We talk, but I feel like there's something not being said. Again, it's not deceit, but it's probably something she doesn't discern I need to hear and I haven't approached it the right way.

 

[IZthe411]

I'm thinking that you're afraid that she doesn't love you for you.

Giggly!

It was a feeling, at one point. I no longer feel that way.