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  1. #41
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerberElla View Post
    I'm not, my "misleading bastards" was also a joke.

    It would just be nice to have some male friends where it wasn't an issue, I AM an idealist you know.
    Oh...it's hard to tell with you people sometimes, because half the time when you complain about this sort of thing on a naive idealistic basis, you're being completely serious.

    My fault for misreading tone.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #42
    12 and a half weeks BerberElla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Oh...it's hard to tell with you people sometimes, because half the time when you complain about this sort of thing on a naive idealistic basis, you're being completely serious.

    My fault for misreading tone.

    aliens?
    Echo - "So are you trying to say she is Evil"

    DeWitt - "Something far worse, she's an Idealist"

    Berb's Johari Berb's Nohari

  3. #43
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post

    I agree that the sexual double standard is silly. I also think it's kind of funny that you don't recognize how these "OMG MEN ARE SUCH PERVS FOR WANTING SEX WITH US WHEN WE JUST WANT TO CUDDLE" threads contribute directly to it--you're pissing in your own bathwater and then complaining that it's yellow.
    Dude, wtf are you on about? Stellar started this thread to say how awesome cuddling is. And Stellar be male, btw

    Also, I have no problem with men wanting sex. I've never had a problem with that. It's a very strong drive in men, with good reason. And for that matter, I love sex myself, so I have no qualms with sharing that experience with them.

    All I'm saying is that it gets tiresome that *any* physical attention, hell, any attention, is immediately perceived as 'omg, she might sleep with me'. And then when she doesn't, and actually just does what she said she would: cuddle, talk to you, be your friend, etc, men get pissed that they've been misled and haven't gotten theirs. That's just ridiculous.

    If I wanna sleep with you, I'll make that very clear, don't worry. But don't be disappointed if what I said I was going to do, aka cuddle, doesn't live up to the expectations *you* had. I never misled you at that point. Take what I say at face value, instead of indulging yourself in wishful thinking. For that matter, enjoy the experience instead of getting frustrated at what you didn't get. Alternatively, if you aren't in need of physical affection without sex, then politely decline. That's your prerogative, the choice you have. All this wishy washy, reading between the lines and misunderstanding shit, is just annoying.

    (Disclaimer: Plz remember that I am NFP and this is meant as a general statement, not a personal one, though I write in a personal style):

    I personally pretty much enjoy all physical touch experiences with those I trust, without or without sex, and find it to be very comforting. And ime as long as things are clear and people trust you, many, including men, tend to very much enjoy that comforting feeling of being held. We're social beings after all. Sometimes words just aren't good enough and touch says it all.

    Actually, I wonder why it is that Stellar seeks it out...Stellar?
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  4. #44
    sophiloist Kaizer's Avatar
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    I recall having watched a documentary on touch and development of babies.... here's a random page I googled :THE RIGHT TOUCH: THE ART OF INFANT MASSAGE

  5. #45
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Dude, wtf are you on about? Stellar started this thread to say how awesome cuddling is. And Stellar be male, btw
    k

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Also, I have no problem with men wanting sex. I've never had a problem with that. It's a very strong drive in men, with good reason. And for that matter, I love sex myself, so I have no qualms with sharing that experience with them.
    It's a very strong drive in women too. That's why men find it confusing and frustrating when you display signs of physical attraction and then don't want sex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    All I'm saying is that it gets tiresome that *any* physical attention, hell, any attention, is immediately perceived as 'omg, she might sleep with me'. And then when she doesn't, and actually just does what she said she would: cuddle, talk to you, be your friend, etc, men get pissed that they've been misled and haven't gotten theirs. That's just ridiculous.
    But she's already "said" implicitly that she's potentially interested in sex simply by showing physical attraction and being physically intimate. That's what these signals typically mean, so no, it's not ridiculous for men to interpret them that way--it's far more ridiculous for you to give these signals and then get upset/surprised when men interpret them to mean what they normally mean.

    You are the one using sexual signals in a misleading way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    If I wanna sleep with you, I'll make that very clear, don't worry. But don't be disappointed if what I said I was going to do, aka cuddle, doesn't live up to the expectations *you* had. I never misled you at that point. Take what I say at face value, instead of indulging yourself in wishful thinking. For that matter, enjoy the experience instead of getting frustrated at what you didn't get. Alternatively, if you aren't in need of physical affection without sex, then politely decline. That's your prerogative, the choice you have. All this wishy washy, reading between the lines and misunderstanding shit, is just annoying.
    lol, yeah, you did. You may not have overtly stated OMG I WANT YOUR SEX, but you did imply through cuddling or other physical means that you're interested in a physical relationship.

    There's a reason this keeps happening to you, and until you stop using signals that typically imply that you want sex, men will not stop interpreting them as indicators that you do. I'd say you need to be more cognizant of the mixed messages you're sending and how men are biologically wired to interpret them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    (Disclaimer: Plz remember that I am NFP and this is meant as a general statement, not a personal one, though I write in a personal style):

    I personally pretty much enjoy all physical touch experiences with those I trust, without or without sex, and find it to be very comforting. And ime as long as things are clear and people trust you, many, including men, tend to very much enjoy that comforting feeling of being held. We're social beings after all. Sometimes words just aren't good enough and touch says it all.

    Actually, I wonder why it is that Stellar seeks it out...Stellar?
    Yes, the problem is that you don't realize how much touch actually says, and you think men are being "presumptuous" by interpreting your signals in this way. Fact is, most of the time when people show physical intimacy beyond basic friend-hugging, it DOES mean that they're interested in more, so men are not really at fault for interpreting your signals this way.

    I don't doubt that it's annoying for you, but the problem lies more with your refusal to accept the non-verbal meaning inherent in the signals you're sending, not with men's interpretations of them.

    Most women do NOT overtly tell you verbally when they want to have sex with you; they use much subtler means, usually involving things like cuddling and physical intimacy because those tend to imply that more intimate contact is desired.

    You need to make more of an effort to make it explicitly clear when you are NOT interested, and this sort of thing will work itself out...but you can't run around giving the same signals that most women use to indicate that they are sexually interested, and then also complain when men interpret them that way.


    Quote Originally Posted by BerberElla View Post
    aliens?
    I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #46
    Senior Member Silly_Siren's Avatar
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    There's a lot of talking and arguing, but no cuddling, why is this? I don't have to have cuddle bitches; I have family, female friends, boyfriends from time to time, I just want to cuddle! I don't want to emasculate my male friends and make them these "cuddle bitches", they do so on their own accord. NFP be damned, I enjoy non-sexual physical intimacy, not everything has to be an elaborate blinking system of: Let's have sex/let's not have sex. I just want to go to the Rationale and cuddle them until they are all NF's
    =universal solution

  7. #47
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Actually, this doesn't keep happening to me, as you might have noticed in the other posts I put in here. My friends know I'm taken and know my values on that. And those same male friends still picked me, from their bunch of female friends to come to to be comforted and hugged. Because they know I won't read into it. Because they know I won't tell anyone that they're feeling vulnerable and blue. And I don't do this with men I don't know or trust. And you have got to stop thinking that this is from my own experience. I sorted out 'the problem' years ago by being clear on this issue in my own life. I'm again, merely referring to the general attitude surrounding this problem. I see so much misunderstanding around me because of this, it saddens me. Especially since so many people feel alone but cannot find comfort with each other as 'social protocol' won't allow it. Or so they feel.

    Some people are like yourself, and consider physical touch= sexual interest. Not everyone is like that. And no, trust me, it's not just NFPs that feel that way. At least not ime. Most of those men were NT, actually.
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  8. #48
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silly_Siren View Post
    There's a lot of talking and arguing, but no cuddling, why is this? I don't have to have cuddle bitches; I have family, female friends, boyfriends from time to time, I just want to cuddle! I don't want to emasculate my male friends and make them these "cuddle bitches", they do so on their own accord. NFP be damned, I enjoy non-sexual physical intimacy, not everything has to be an elaborate blinking system of: Let's have sex/let's not have sex. I just want to go to the Rationale and cuddle them until they are all NF's
    A lot more of human interaction is based on subconscious sexual desire/mating drives than you might expect.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #49
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Actually, this doesn't keep happening to me, as you might have noticed in the other posts I put in here. My friends know I'm taken and know my values on that. And those same male friends still picked me, from their bunch of female friends to come to to be comforted and hugged. Because they know I won't read into it. Because they know I won't tell anyone that they're feeling vulnerable and blue. And I don't do this with men I don't know or trust. And you have got to stop thinking that this is from my own experience. I sorted out 'the problem' years ago by being clear on this issue in my own life. I'm again, merely referring to the general attitude surrounding this problem. I see so much misunderstanding around me because of this, it saddens me. Especially since so many people feel alone but cannot find comfort with each other as 'social protocol' won't allow it. Or so they feel.

    Some people are like yourself, and consider physical touch= sexual interest. Not everyone is like that. And no, trust me, it's not just NFPs that feel that way. At least not ime. Most of those men were NT, actually.
    I honestly don't have any interest in your personal experiences on who does and doesn't engage in sex-free cuddling; I'm just trying to explain why this happens. Obviously it's possible for people to engage in purely platonic cuddling; you just shouldn't be surprised when this isn't the default interpretation.

    And again, yes it's obviously not only NFP women who feel this way; this group just shows more of a tendency toward romantic idealism and gets upset about this topic more often than others. (See berberella's post about being considered a "piece of meat"--NFP women are far more likely to take it personally/get offended over nothing when men are sexually but not personally interested in them.)

    It's not just me that sees it this way; these things are hard-wired into human biology. Sorry if that isn't what you want to hear, but that's life.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #50
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Human biology also wired us to be social, to need each others company, and not just for mating. To seek comfort in one another, in times of need. Just to feel close to someone. Some are more prone to this need than others, but it's still there. I get why it gets confused with the mating process, as part of it appears in there too. But it shouldn't drive us to make that part only exclusive to the mating process. That just robs us of an incredibly social tool, meant to further our well-being and happiness, and alleviate stress which ultimately is harmfull. We'd be mad not to use this evolutionary tool, imo.
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