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Thread: ESTP or ESFP?

  1. #31
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Me again.

    I realized I mis-judged my father. He is not an ENTP.

    But now I am questioning whether he is more of an ESTP or ESFP?

    What would be the major differences in a male?
    I know a male of both of those types.
    I would say that they look similar but ESFP is more willing to help, more into entertaining people and more soft hearted. They are both fast moving and talking people who do a lot all the time (in my experience anyway). ESFP's would be more people oriented (as F suggests of course ). I would say ESFP is more into arts and ESTP more into sports (even if I'm not 100% sure of this ).

  2. #32
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    My father is an SP. I described him within the confines of SP type.
    Does your father agree with you that he is SP, or is this your opinion (that's a rhetorical question for all of the obvious reasons)? This is not to argue your point Mom, but reading post for years, I have observed peoples uncanny ability to mistype others, even those they believe to know. Just knowing myself in being quite enigmatic gives credence to realize that it's futile to type others. Based on many questionable arguments on how many misunderstand this theory raises suspect as to whether they can speed read others. I know you are a big fan of the Tiegers, but their theory is based solely on dichotomies, not true type functions.

    You have merely determined your father to be extraverted and likely a thinking type. Since the environment that he grew up in most likely tainted his ability to truly be himself, I would say that he, and he alone can validate his true type. There is a biasness toward claiming people to be sensing types based on the negativity of descriptions and claiming intuitive based on the positive.
    ….. Colleagues who are less assertive than them may on occasion view them as being a little overbearing, or even somewhat opinionated at times. However, this is to misunderstand their straight-forward, direct interpersonal style and their lively, expressive manner. Avoiding dogmatism, they will be seen as open-minded, independent thinkers. However, more cautious colleagues may at times worry about their readiness to discard established systems and procedures, in their attempt to find immediate solutions to pressing problems.
    Compare this with ENTJs
    ….less assertive colleagues may, on occasion, mistake their straight-forward, matter-of-fact interpersonal style; with ENTJs wrongly being perceived to be somewhat overpowering, opinionated or dogmatic. Decisive, confident and plain-speaking, their friends and colleagues will seldom wonder where they stand with them. Naturally well organised, colleagues may on occasion resent their tendency to take charge of situations.
    –OR ESTJs
    …People who are less assertive than them may on occasion view them as being a little overbearing, or even somewhat opinionated at times. However, this is to misunderstand their straight-forward, direct interpersonal style and their tendency to focus on the observed facts in a cool, analytical manner.
    and ENTP
    … colleagues who are less assertive than them may on occasion view them as being a little overbearing, or even somewhat opinionated at times. However, this is to misunderstand their confident, challenging conversational style, and their lively, expressive inter-personal manner, which is borne of their enthusiasm for debating new ideas and theories. ....more cautious, detail-conscious colleagues may at times worry about their readiness to discard established systems and procedures, when seeking immediate solutions to current problems.

  3. #33
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post
    I know a male of both of those types.
    I would say that they look similar but ESFP is more willing to help, more into entertaining people and more soft hearted. They are both fast moving and talking people who do a lot all the time (in my experience anyway). ESFP's would be more people oriented (as F suggests of course ). I would say ESFP is more into arts and ESTP more into sports (even if I'm not 100% sure of this ).
    Thanks.
    I'm pretty sure now that he's an ESTP.

  4. #34
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Does your father agree with you that he is SP, or is this your opinion (that's a rhetorical question for all of the obvious reasons)? This is not to argue your point Mom, but reading post for years, I have observed peoples uncanny ability to mistype others, even those they believe to know. Just knowing myself in being quite enigmatic gives credence to realize that it's futile to type others.
    You're preaching to the choir. I quite agree with you.

    Based on many questionable arguments on how many misunderstand this theory raises suspect as to whether they can speed read others. I know you are a big fan of the Tiegers, but their theory is based solely on dichotomies, not true type functions.
    I think the dichotomies are easier to discern than the cognitive functions.

    You have merely determined your father to be extraverted and likely a thinking type. Since the environment that he grew up in most likely tainted his ability to truly be himself,
    Isn't that true of everyone?

    I would say that he, and he alone can validate his true type.
    Maybe... if he cared to take the time to learn the language, and the concepts.

    There is a biasness toward claiming people to be sensing types based on the negativity of descriptions and claiming intuitive based on the positive. Compare this with ENTJs –OR ESTJs and ENTP
    I am not prejudiced about S people. I know their strengths and their weaknesses. They have abilities Ns don't have. There is NO BAD TYPE. They're ALL GOOD in their own way.

    My father is in his 70's, only made it to the 8th grade, is hard of hearing, and wouldn't be interested in understanding MBTT long enough to figure out what his type is, so I haven't asked him. However, my sister is also an MBTT enthusiast and we bounce our ideas off of each other, because as you pointed out, and as I am also very aware, we can tend to see what we see from our own perspective, which may not necessarily be very objective.

    As I stated at the beginning of this thread, I went for a long time thinking my father was an ENTP, but more and more I have come to realize that he's probably foremostly an S, not an N, or at least he was when I was a kid.

    The only reason I am even entertaining the idea that he's an F is because my INFP sister insists that he is. But my sister can make Jack the Ripper sound like a nice guy - which is very annoying to me. She believes my evil ISTJ mother is an F also. Who knows, she may be right. One of us is not being entirely objective, and we may never know who that is.

    In the meantime, MBTT is what it is... a method I use to understand people - to get a long with them better, to understand where they're coming from, to understand why they don't understand me or why they disagree with me, and to not take it so hard when they are critical of me. It's a way of appreciating them for who they are and for what they're good at, and for understanding their limitations.

    It has brought a lot of peace and understanding to my life and I would not have wanted to live the last 20 years without it.

  5. #35
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote:
    Based on many questionable arguments on how many misunderstand this theory raises suspect as to whether they can speed read others. I know you are a big fan of the Tiegers, but their theory is based solely on dichotomies, not true type functions.
    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I think the dichotomies are easier to discern than the cognitive functions.
    I agree they’re easier, but it’s much easier to confuse type when using them. Knowing their true function preferences can be just as easy for the person to get their type correct, but not so easy in someone reading them. Besides just because someone showing a tendency toward E/I, S/N and T/F can be based on how they behave around certain people. It does not truly determine their preferences.

    Quote:
    You have merely determined your father to be extraverted and likely a thinking type. Since the environment that he grew up in most likely tainted his ability to truly be himself,
    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Isn't that true of everyone?
    Absolutely not. One of the biggest problems with MBTI is that it provides descriptions in healthy states, but gives very little credence to moderate to unhealthy states. You tell me where the average person lies.

    Quote:
    I would say that he, and he alone can validate his true type.
    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Maybe... if he cared to take the time to learn the language, and the concepts.
    Yet that does not make him ESTP since the average extravert and ISJs are not going to buy into pseudo-psychology. Without him determining his true type, then you can at best provide an amateur prognosis using the most elementary tools (dichotomies) to make that assertion. I don’t see any harm with this since he could care less, and it only provides you some finality of how and why he is the way he is.

    Quote:
    There is a biasness toward claiming people to be sensing types based on the negativity of descriptions and claiming intuitive based on the positive. Compare this with ENTJs –OR ESTJs and ENTP
    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I am not prejudiced about S people. I know their strengths and their weaknesses. They have abilities Ns don't have. There is NO BAD TYPE. They're ALL GOOD in their own way.

    My father is in his 70's, only made it to the 8th grade, is hard of hearing, and wouldn't be interested in understanding MBTT long enough to figure out what his type is, so I haven't asked him. However, my sister is also an MBTT enthusiast and we bounce our ideas off of each other, because as you pointed out, and as I am also very aware, we can tend to see what we see from our own perspective, which may not necessarily be very objective.

    As I stated at the beginning of this thread, I went for a long time thinking my father was an ENTP, but more and more I have come to realize that he's probably foremostly an S, not an N, or at least he was when I was a kid.

    The only reason I am even entertaining the idea that he's an F is because my INFP sister insists that he is. But my sister can make Jack the Ripper sound like a nice guy - which is very annoying to me. She believes my evil ISTJ mother is an F also. Who knows, she may be right. One of us is not being entirely objective, and we may never know who that is.

    In the meantime, MBTT is what it is... a method I use to understand people - to get a long with them better, to understand where they're coming from, to understand why they don't understand me or why they disagree with me, and to not take it so hard when they are critical of me. It's a way of appreciating them for who they are and for what they're good at, and for understanding their limitations.

    It has brought a lot of peace and understanding to my life and I would not have wanted to live the last 20 years without it.
    Interesting….. my dad also is in his late 70’s and had just as hard a life as your dad. It was the way they were raised, lack of opportunities to do what they truly wanted and a need to adapt to the gender biased cultures. As my dad has reached his twilight years, I would have been wrong to assume that he was an ISTP. He is ISJ based on his sense of community and strong value based judgments makes be believe that he could be ISFJ. It was quite necessary for him to hide that fact in order to survive.[/quote]
    We find it easy to label others or things, for our own ease in understanding it But the human mind is far too complex and this system is not something that can be considered as inclusive, without considering how a person’s environment has affected them over a period. Consider the fact that your father’s upbringing most likely solidified his personality long before you were thought of, and what you are witnessing has more to do with affects of his environment than whom he may truly be.

  6. #36
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    To conclude my thoughts on this subject, there are several things that I consider when determining type by descriptions. First, has anyone ever read descriptions by a type other than INP? NO?? That in itself is a bit scary since Jung claims that all preferring an introverted function are subjective. When you combine this with his thoughts on rational (T/F) and irrational (S/N) functions, the type that I would be most skeptical of knowing what they're talking about in describing another type is INPs. Secondly, then who would know more about a certain type (Hint: "Know thyself"). That would give credence to any description written about a certain type, by that type. Hence, how can anyone determine that any description would come close to the bestfittypes? In saying that, this is at least what ESTPs think of themselves:
    I make it happen. How I work—I have a picture in my head on how things will be, and I’m totally involved in the here and now. I am go, go, go. And that creates a lot of successes. I just dodge my way through the sparks and problems. I’m very task oriented. I like to do something, get it done, and move to the next thing. I love circumstances where it’s a challenge.
    I’m a doer. What’s the mission and how are we getting there? Let’s work together. Let’s go. Throw any obstacle, I’ll find a way.

    New stuff, that’s the thrill. I love to learn. I can take a prior experience and lay it right on top of what I’m doing today and carry it all forward, and it’s a snap. I do a lot of brainstorming on my feet, organizing the points in my mind mentally. What’s to worry? Just adapt. But draw me a picture, get me a list, or put it on my calendar. Sitting still is hard for me. I am really activity oriented and I don’t need lots of supervision. I look for variety in most positions. If it’s not there, I tend not to stay. I’d rather go out there and do it, just get on with things, and I can communicate that without having to spend a lot of time explaining. People know that if I have something that needs to be done, I do it. And I ask for help when it’s needed.

    I am totally a people person. Working through people is the way to get things done. All of my energy, fun, and most uplifting experiences are focused around people. I don’t beat around the bush. Sometimes I have to tone it down a little bit—people may read me the wrong way. I’m very comfortable working either together as a team or individually. I like having flexibility, options, negotiating points. Some people need somebody to be very clear, very direct, and very to the point. That’s how I operate. And work needs to be mutually enjoyable for all of the parties involved. Celebrate achievements. Recognition or reward runs very high in my value system. I love the challenge of creating something pleasing to the eye. I like the order, to walk into a place that’s totally chaotic, nothing’s happening, and there’s a great opportunity to straighten things out. I like to get the job of placing all the stuff, making it right so it works.

    I like somebody with a little sizzle. The most important thing in relationships is absolute autonomy and independence. I admit I like to be in control and yet I’m kind of easygoing in that I just want freedom. Freedom to me is leave me alone, let me do it. Anything that constrains me around that I don’t like and kind of rebel against. I don’t like to be told what to do or what to think. And although I know it’s good for me, I don’t like feedback either. It takes a lot to rattle me, and even then I just go on. I tend not to dwell on things, but sometimes I have a tendency to imagine worst-case scenarios, especially when I am stressed.

    Family is very important. Just getting together and being close with the family, I think that’s satisfying. I don’t have a whole lot of really deep friendships, but yet I like to think people would describe me as dedicated, determined, and loyal. I sometimes have difficulty concealing what I am thinking or feeling. I don’t like the pressure of having to say no. I can be somewhat cool but a genuine friend as a personal relationship evolves. Trustworthiness in personal relationships is very important, that we can disagree and still be friends, and if our backs were ever to the wall, I’m there and I would expect the same.

    If I don’t respect someone, I avoid them. If I can find another way to do business I will. I surround myself with people that I feel comfortable with, but they’re totally my selection.
    I like taking on something that I want to do and getting it done and seeing results, keeping things moving along just to see that I have met some goals—a feeling of accomplishment in a day. I’ll always take bigger risks if I feel confident enough. Then I’ll work with it for a while, and if I see it’s not going anywhere, I just move on and go from there. I guess that summarizes how I deal with situations.
    This does not seem to be a person who takes delight in taking advantage of others and runs contrary to SP-Improvisers core need in observing others motives in attempting to take advantage of someone. Again I think what has been described in this thread could be any type during an unhealthy state.

  7. #37
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Quote:
    Based on many questionable arguments on how many misunderstand this theory raises suspect as to whether they can speed read others. I know you are a big fan of the Tiegers, but their theory is based solely on dichotomies, not true type functions.
    I agree they’re easier, but it’s much easier to confuse type when using them. Knowing their true function preferences can be just as easy for the person to get their type correct, but not so easy in someone reading them. Besides just because someone showing a tendency toward E/I, S/N and T/F can be based on how they behave around certain people. It does not truly determine their preferences.

    Quote:
    You have merely determined your father to be extraverted and likely a thinking type. Since the environment that he grew up in most likely tainted his ability to truly be himself,
    Absolutely not. One of the biggest problems with MBTI is that it provides descriptions in healthy states, but gives very little credence to moderate to unhealthy states. You tell me where the average person lies.

    Quote:
    I would say that he, and he alone can validate his true type.
    Yet that does not make him ESTP since the average extravert and ISJs are not going to buy into pseudo-psychology. Without him determining his true type, then you can at best provide an amateur prognosis using the most elementary tools (dichotomies) to make that assertion. I don’t see any harm with this since he could care less, and it only provides you some finality of how and why he is the way he is.

    Quote:
    There is a biasness toward claiming people to be sensing types based on the negativity of descriptions and claiming intuitive based on the positive. Compare this with ENTJs –OR ESTJs and ENTP
    Interesting….. my dad also is in his late 70’s and had just as hard a life as your dad. It was the way they were raised, lack of opportunities to do what they truly wanted and a need to adapt to the gender biased cultures. As my dad has reached his twilight years, I would have been wrong to assume that he was an ISTP. He is ISJ based on his sense of community and strong value based judgments makes be believe that he could be ISFJ. It was quite necessary for him to hide that fact in order to survive.
    We find it easy to label others or things, for our own ease in understanding it But the human mind is far too complex and this system is not something that can be considered as inclusive, without considering how a person’s environment has affected them over a period. Consider the fact that your father’s upbringing most likely solidified his personality long before you were thought of, and what you are witnessing has more to do with affects of his environment than whom he may truly be.
    What the heck?!
    Shall I stop using MBTT altogether?!
    Get Off My Back!

  8. #38
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    My response was not intended to upset you and I have no intent to "be on your back". As stated if you choose to use dichotomies as many do, so be it. Yet if you choose to convey your thoughts on how certain types are based on that system, then expect to be challenged.

  9. #39
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    ESFPs are a lot more affectionate. most of my jock friends at lunch are ESFPs and it seems like they constantly need to touch people. this could be a hug, a slap on the butt, even a back rub (I find them extremely refreshing to be around because they aren't homophobes who are frightened by men touching them). one of them even tackled my randomly and we both laughed. many of them love children (I think this is an FP thing) and they are always ready to play (again, I find this extremely refreshing), in terms of what's going on in our minds, ENFPs and ESFPs are completely different, but on the outside, our personalities are very similar and it's usually easy to relate to them.
    ESTPs tend to be more smooth and are often extremely intelligent (not in an N sort of way, but they know things more by instinct than intuition). some of them I know are complete pricks, but others are friendly and charming. I really wouldn't do well with one in a close friendship the way I would with an INFP (in my opinion, the best friend temperament out there), but they're great for more light hearted conversation.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Heinel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    ESFPs are a lot more affectionate. most of my jock friends at lunch are ESFPs and it seems like they constantly need to touch people. this could be a hug, a slap on the butt, even a back rub (I find them extremely refreshing to be around because they aren't homophobes who are frightened by men touching them). one of them even tackled my randomly and we both laughed. many of them love children (I think this is an FP thing) and they are always ready to play (again, I find this extremely refreshing), in terms of what's going on in our minds, ENFPs and ESFPs are completely different, but on the outside, our personalities are very similar and it's usually easy to relate to them.
    ESTPs tend to be more smooth and are often extremely intelligent (not in an N sort of way, but they know things more by instinct than intuition). some of them I know are complete pricks, but others are friendly and charming. I really wouldn't do well with one in a close friendship the way I would with an INFP (in my opinion, the best friend temperament out there), but they're great for more light hearted conversation.
    Sounds like a dream. You sure they don't shack each other at night?
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