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  1. #41
    HAHHAHHAH! INTJ123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambchop View Post
    My 14 year ISFP (Wyatt) starts high school this year. I REALLY need the help of SP's on helping motivate him in school, help him CARE about school and proper "consequences" when he isn't holding up his responsibilities!

    He sees no need for school. Last year, 8th grade was pure hell. He has his own band formed and he is great with music. However, he's not interested in ANY programs at school with regard to music. Thankfully, we've been able to get him some electives like Art and Digital Photography (he's won awards for art and is a great photographer) to mix in with the rest of the classes or I think it would be all out war. He says he is planning to drop out when he's 16because he's going to make it big in music. We have of course talked until we're blue in the face on having a back-up plan until he "makes it big" (because if you don't agree exactly with him on him making it in music...he accuses you of not supporting him.) He is a bright kid and a great kid. I know that ISFPs don't love school and crave freedom. We've told him that he can hang with his band and whatever, as long as he keeps his grades up. The last semester of school last year, he pretty much spent at home because he was failing his classes. I had meetings with the teachers and principal (who were wonderful and very supportive) and we did as much as we could. I am so worried about him this year! He was really terrible at getting up in the morning last year too...at one point, I was just about ready to dump a bowl of icewater on his head (I literally had it suspended over his head) before he would get up. The only thing different this year is that he has a "girlfriend" who is in AP classes. She is a good influence on him and wants him there every day on time, so she can see him. But, I don't know how long that will last.

    I don't know how to make him care. We would be more than happy to help him get into an Art School after high school or pursue photography. You can't get even get a job at McDonald's these days without graduating! He is so stubborn and just won't listen. I guess I thought I would ask other SP's for advice on how to help him and what to do. What motivates you? Is school/education something that is valuable to you? How do we help you value education?

    As an ISFJ, I was always a model student. I was internally motivated and got excellent grades. Nobody ever had to remind me to do ANYTHING. Even now as I'm finishing college and juggling work and school and kids...teachers love me and my GPA is 3.5. I WANT to relate to him, but have a really hard time. I end up just wanting to bash my head against the wall!

    Thanks for any and all advice!
    Honestly, you are wrong, my best friend is esfp dropped out of high school, and now makes a lot more money than most others our age. So he still has no diploma but makes up to $28 an hour+bonuses. And honestly, there is no difference if you got a diploma or not nowadays, both are still frowned upon if you don't got a college degree. A college degree is the new high school diploma. So if he isn't going to college, he might as well drop out right now and learn life's lessons faster. OR you can have him just take his GED and if he passes then hell that's a win win for both of you. But you probably don't care what this non conformist intj has to say, it probably goes against everything your SJ instincts tell you.

  2. #42
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mo View Post
    Mo's awesome post
    My step-father teaches classical guitar at the state university. His program is, I sh*t you not, one of the best in the nation, yet some of his students don't place at the end of a grueling graduate program.

    Your son needs to start working toward his goal right now--and he needs to be working hard--because there are lots of kids with the same dream, and it's the ones who start early, work hard, and stick with it who make it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mo View Post
    I must say I respect you for wanting to understand your son. I understand that you've discussed this severally with him. Does he have a 'cool' uncle or older person whom he admires? If so, you might want to get them to speak to him and get him to understand the merits (few though they may be :P) of organised education and how it will help him attain his goal in the future. Do some research and get a list of various contemporary music universities (e.g. Berkelee) with distinguished alumni and get them to explain to him that he'll hone his craft, get even better and, consequently, have a better chance of succeeding once he goes through those channels. Nonetheless, first, he'll have to do well in high school to get there. (emphasis mine) Works even better if some of his music idols are among those degree-holders.
    I cannot stress this enough! Have your son contact professors and grad-students/TA's ASAP. He can make it, but he needs to know it's not easy, even if he's a boatload of talent--if he doesn't develop it, he's going nowhere.

    I'd also like to give Jeffster's post (near the top) a nod too. I wish my father had done that for me.

  3. #43
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    I see others approving Jeff's post, too. The one saying that if the child doesn't see the long-time consequences, the consequences can be made more immediate.

    I mean, shutting someone off their video games is a minor but educational simulation of what would happen if a person would be unable to support for themselves in the future.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #44
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poppy View Post
    My ISFP friend hated school for the most part, but he liked learning. I think he enjoyed getting to know his professors and he was always borrowing books from them so he could study up on subjects that he found interesting. For him it was definitely about the material, not grades, so maybe an increased emphasis on learning things because they are useful or would allow him to do fun things (like learning a language=better equipped to travel) would help, as opposed to saying he might need a back up plan, because as far as I can tell ISFPs aren't exactly "planners". Encouraging him to study with friends or his girlfriend might also be helpful.

    I dunno, can I get a yay or nay from SPs on any of that?
    A big Yea here....I somehow managed to graduate High School albeit with the lowest possible GPA...I found school very boring...I could not see the practical applications of what I was being taught. Yet I loved reading and learning, filling my mind with what I considered interesting information...I owned many books was very proficient in the arts at school...but recieved no practical support for my artistic endeavors from my family...Artistic pursuits were considered silly and I should grow out of it...I didn't.

    What would have been most practical for my mindset at the time? Apprenticeship within the arts....a serious, focused and disciplined approach to my demonstrable strengths. I had a beef with authority then too...I could not respect any teache if I sensed even a splinter of hypocrisy in their demeanor and well schools are full of those. I think it is possible that SP's may not learn in a straight line? We want to savor those experiences that give us pleasure which may seem like a vice...but it may be our virtue as artists.

    To the OP: He wants to be a musician? Find a serious employed professional musician (in the genre he wants to be in) who is willing to have a frank and pointed discussion about the responsibilities and implications of choosing that career. It probably won't work coming from you...He needs to hear it from someone who he can consider "authentic". I say this as someone who spent abou four years out of High School in a band. It was fun and it was also a lot of work and I regretted not having the business and technical chops I needed to be more successful. If he decides that he really must be in music or he will die, than insist that he be the best musician in his school, that he take every available class regarding music and that he excel; this will pay off after school in performing and in teaching gigs. A musical career can be very fulfilling...but it requires discipline formal or informal; you won't get anywhere without concentrated work and that can make a personal life difficult.
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

  5. #45
    Senior Member Lambchop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinebrighter View Post
    Have you thought about having him taking a year off from school?

    He is 14. It is natural to go through a rebellious stage right now. His view of the world is limited. He doesn't understand his chances of making it in the music world.

    I suggest him getting a job for one year. Have him travel the country. Try to show him the world outside of high school. Concentrate on teaching him PRACTICAL things that he can see using in his everyday life. Meet bands on the road and see how so many with talent don't make it.

    I wish I took a year off and try to figure out what the real world was like.
    This is interesting advice. I think you must mean taking a year off after high school? He is required by law to be in school right now. He can't get a job at 14 here. We live in Michigan...people with Ph.D's can't get jobs right now. I'd love to travel the country with him....but uhh...I'm a paralegal for a law firm and my husband works for a pharmacuetical company and I have another child. We can't just take off with him, unfortunately. Unless we won the lottery. Maybe I should be buying more lottery tickets.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambchop View Post
    My 14 year ISFP (Wyatt) starts high school this year. I REALLY need the help of SP's on helping motivate him in school, help him CARE about school and proper "consequences" when he isn't holding up his responsibilities!

    He sees no need for school. Last year, 8th grade was pure hell. He has his own band formed and he is great with music. However, he's not interested in ANY programs at school with regard to music. Thankfully, we've been able to get him some electives like Art and Digital Photography (he's won awards for art and is a great photographer) to mix in with the rest of the classes or I think it would be all out war. He says he is planning to drop out when he's 16because he's going to make it big in music. We have of course talked until we're blue in the face on having a back-up plan until he "makes it big" (because if you don't agree exactly with him on him making it in music...he accuses you of not supporting him.) He is a bright kid and a great kid. I know that ISFPs don't love school and crave freedom. We've told him that he can hang with his band and whatever, as long as he keeps his grades up. The last semester of school last year, he pretty much spent at home because he was failing his classes. I had meetings with the teachers and principal (who were wonderful and very supportive) and we did as much as we could. I am so worried about him this year! He was really terrible at getting up in the morning last year too...at one point, I was just about ready to dump a bowl of icewater on his head (I literally had it suspended over his head) before he would get up. The only thing different this year is that he has a "girlfriend" who is in AP classes. She is a good influence on him and wants him there every day on time, so she can see him. But, I don't know how long that will last.

    I don't know how to make him care. We would be more than happy to help him get into an Art School after high school or pursue photography. You can't get even get a job at McDonald's these days without graduating! He is so stubborn and just won't listen. I guess I thought I would ask other SP's for advice on how to help him and what to do. What motivates you? Is school/education something that is valuable to you? How do we help you value education?

    As an ISFJ, I was always a model student. I was internally motivated and got excellent grades. Nobody ever had to remind me to do ANYTHING. Even now as I'm finishing college and juggling work and school and kids...teachers love me and my GPA is 3.5. I WANT to relate to him, but have a really hard time. I end up just wanting to bash my head against the wall!

    Thanks for any and all advice!
    I'm gonna play the regressionist here and actually let you do all the thinking for yourself.

    Think about the next question for 1 minute before posting your answer. There is no right or wrong answer, it's the thought process that counts.

    Why do you want your son to get good grades and be motivated in school?

  7. #47
    Senior Member Lambchop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJ123 View Post
    Honestly, you are wrong, my best friend is esfp dropped out of high school, and now makes a lot more money than most others our age. So he still has no diploma but makes up to $28 an hour+bonuses. And honestly, there is no difference if you got a diploma or not nowadays, both are still frowned upon if you don't got a college degree. A college degree is the new high school diploma. So if he isn't going to college, he might as well drop out right now and learn life's lessons faster. OR you can have him just take his GED and if he passes then hell that's a win win for both of you. But you probably don't care what this non conformist intj has to say, it probably goes against everything your SJ instincts tell you.
    I'm trying not to take offense to you saying I don't care what you think. Of course I do! I appreciate hearing advice from any angle. SJs do like to gather as much information as they can! My husband is very non-conformist and I respect him very much. My children and husband have taught me that everybody is different and to appreciate the differences of others.

    I agree with you on people who can make money without finishing a degree or going to college. Many entropenours do this!

    Honestly...other SJs that I've talked to tend to judge me harshly. I let him dress however he wants to (to a certain point) and he has black dyed funky hair. Over the years, I've gotten to the point where I don't even notice the stares from other parents (you can image this has been hard for an SJ to get used to, but my kids have both taken glee in exploiting my uncomfortableness to the point of where I'm not even uncomfortable). I have been told it's because I give him too much freedom (whenever I discuss his issues in school.) I have been told it's because I let him dress the way I do. I have been told to "lay down the law with him." I was told that with my older son as well...who went through both a grunge phase and a "I want to pierce everything" phase and now dresses in khakis and button ups and looks like a completely different person after coming through all of that. I've heard:

    "I would never let my kid look like that!" It looks disrespectful!" (Huh??!!! He's the most tender hearted person I've ever known.)

    "I don't allow my kid to shop at that store!" (Really...Hot Topic is that bad? Honestly! He doesn't have any tattoos or piercings, he just likes black A LOT)

    "You should take away everything! Punish him more and do it more harshly!"

    Other parents get concerned with their kids hang out with Wyatt (that don't know him...if they know him, they love him. You couldn't ask for a more respectful kid.) Which is sad, because I consider any kid that he has for a friend VERY lucky. He's not hurting anybody just because he looks different!!!

    I'm SO tired of being judged...it feels like a huge breath of fresh air to be in your SP forum!!!!!!!!!!! :

    "But you probably don't care what this non conformist intj has to say, it probably goes against everything your SJ instincts tell you." You would be amazed at how incorrect this statement is, my friend.

  8. #48
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Found something that might interest you:
    The Exploratory Learner

    The website itself is about ADD, but the article is about temperaments and schooling.

    I came from a family of SJ educators. The academic part of school was never enough for me, so often I resigned to just daydream or socialize. In fact, I kinda lived to socialize at school, and got in trouble for talking and laughing and whatever when I was in elementary. Sometimes I would write my own stories and forgo weeks of homework, or I'd read the books I was interested in behind my class notebook so the teacher couldn't see it. I did better in college, but I took a lot of self-paced classes, and finished courses in a number of weeks. It was better for me that way.

    Do you have a Sudbury Valley School in your area?Sudbury Valley School Home This school is many an NF and SPs dream.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Found something that might interest you:
    The Exploratory Learner

    The website itself is about ADD, but the article is about temperaments and schooling.

    I came from a family of SJ educators. The academic part of school was never enough for me, so often I resigned to just daydream or socialize. In fact, I kinda lived to socialize at school, and got in trouble for talking and laughing and whatever when I was in elementary. Sometimes I would write my own stories and forgo weeks of homework, or I'd read the books I was interested in behind my class notebook so the teacher couldn't see it. I did better in college, but I took a lot of self-paced classes, and finished courses in a number of weeks. It was better for me that way.

    Do you have a Sudbury Valley School in your area?Sudbury Valley School Home This school is many an NF and SPs dream.
    My parents never pushed school for me. The few times they tried I gave them no bones to bite onto. When I could get away with it school was time to get extra sleep or a time to just sit there bored out of my mind. I was in the bottom 3/4 of my class. I got a good enough SAT score to go to a decent uni and then gave up and went to community college because it was less "school like". I got in trouble in self paced. I would wait until the last week to do everything and the teachers didnt want to grade it all in one week.

  10. #50
    it's tea time! Walking Tourist's Avatar
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    How about this:
    a conversation with a musician in his genre would be great.
    If you could find a band that would let him do a jam session with them, that would be very cool. You could make conditions for him, such as certain music classes, etc. If he knows that he is going to get these jam sessions, he will see immediate results and maybe will be more motivated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch63 View Post
    To the OP: He wants to be a musician? Find a serious employed professional musician (in the genre he wants to be in) who is willing to have a frank and pointed discussion about the responsibilities and implications of choosing that career. It probably won't work coming from you...He needs to hear it from someone who he can consider "authentic". I say this as someone who spent abou four years out of High School in a band. It was fun and it was also a lot of work and I regretted not having the business and technical chops I needed to be more successful. If he decides that he really must be in music or he will die, than insist that he be the best musician in his school, that he take every available class regarding music and that he excel; this will pay off after school in performing and in teaching gigs. A musical career can be very fulfilling...but it requires discipline formal or informal; you won't get anywhere without concentrated work and that can make a personal life difficult.
    I'm a little teapot, short and stout. Here is my handle and here is my spout. Every time I steam up, I give a shout. Just tip me over and pour me out.

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