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  1. #31
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambchop View Post
    ...Prototype, this is probably an SJ thing...but why are there dashes between all of your words?
    No-space-bar!
    ... They say that knowledge is free, and to truly acquire wisdom always comes with a price... Well then,... That will be $10, please!

  2. #32
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    i know you are divorced. who is the other income? are you remarried? i in no way meant to tell you to quit your job to homeschool. i meant he could homeschool himself, if he is responsible enough and independent enough. and if he hasn't shown very much independene or responsibility, perhaps he would if he were given the opportunity. kids much younger with single parent households homeschool very successfully! kids don't need to be taught by a person necessarily, although sometimes it takes a person to clarify an idea or help over a rough patch, like in math. but mostly a kid can learn things from books or the internet. mine have. very successfully. i don't stand up and teach or lecture my kids during school. they use their workbooks and pretty much teach themselves, just as you learn what you need to learn on your own.

    check out john holt, a youth rights pioneer and early homeschool advocate to see that you really could do it, and it is a viable option for your son:

    John Holt (educator) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    you sound like an awesome mom, btw!
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  3. #33
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    A few weeks back, I was helping my mother 'spring-clean' when I came across a school report form from when I was in the 6th grade. The comments from the (unhealthy ESxJ) class teacher and (ESTJ) headmistress were (verbatim) "He's a boy who is capable of far much better work but too carefree to get down to serious revision. Please be yourself.... He can be bright but he doesn't love his work at all... very friendly and outgoing.... X is capable of being in the top 5 of the class. He only requires keenness, seriousness and determination... X is capable but not serious with his work..." (It's a long end-year report. I'll scan and put it on my blog someday. I imagine that's what quite a few ISFP reports looks like.)

    Anyway, my point is, I hated school (and, most of the time, my grades reflected that). My parents, an ISFJ and an ESTP who believed one's prowess in school was the measure of a man, REFUSED to understand me and I was yelled at and spanked incessantly and generally made to feel like crap. This continued all the way till university when I got to study something I loved rather than whatever 'irrelevant syllabus' I was 'supposed' to soak in and now, I have a decent job and I'm, admittedly, good at what I do. My father, who had no qualms letting me know that he considered me a failure, now gives me his grudging respect.

    I must say I respect you for wanting to understand your son. I understand that you've discussed this severally with him. Does he have a 'cool' uncle or older person whom he admires? If so, you might want to get them to speak to him and get him to understand the merits (few though they may be :P) of organised education and how it will help him attain his goal in the future. Do some research and get a list of various contemporary music universities (e.g. Berkelee) with distinguished alumni and get them to explain to him that he'll hone his craft, get even better and, consequently, have a better chance of succeeding once he goes through those channels. Nonetheless, first, he'll have to do well in high school to get there. Works even better if some of his music idols are among those degree-holders.

    All the best, Lambchop. I can only imagine how hard it must be to be a parent and not understand why your son would, in your eyes, 'self-destruct'.

    As for getting 'in' with your son, I'll email you shortly with some tips based on my experiences with my ISFJ mother.

  4. #34
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    My favourite report comment was something like this; "excelling despite his constant attempts to be mediocre".

    I still don't know what it means.

    It seems pretty unanimous that school sucks for SPs, our education systems have so much room for improvement.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  5. #35
    Senior Member Lambchop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    i know you are divorced. who is the other income? are you remarried? i in no way meant to tell you to quit your job to homeschool. i meant he could homeschool himself, if he is responsible enough and independent enough. and if he hasn't shown very much independene or responsibility, perhaps he would if he were given the opportunity. kids much younger with single parent households homeschool very successfully! kids don't need to be taught by a person necessarily, although sometimes it takes a person to clarify an idea or help over a rough patch, like in math. but mostly a kid can learn things from books or the internet. mine have. very successfully. i don't stand up and teach or lecture my kids during school. they use their workbooks and pretty much teach themselves, just as you learn what you need to learn on your own.

    check out john holt, a youth rights pioneer and early homeschool advocate to see that you really could do it, and it is a viable option for your son:

    John Holt (educator) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    you sound like an awesome mom, btw!
    Thank you for the compliment...I do tend to get down on myself a lot for not parenting "in the right way." I am remarried, I just got remarried in June. He is an INFP and doesn't place a whole lot of value on school either. He did go through 3 years at a very good college though...and would have graduated if his mom hadn't died at the time. However, although he values "freedom"...it is in a very different way than my son.

    I will check out the resources you sent me. The concept of the kids teaching themselves is interesting. Although he is responsible, I think he lacks the self discipline to do it himself. Also, what would he be doing during the day when other kids are in school and myself and my husband are at work? I guess that thought worries me. Even if I thought of being a teacher when I was younger, I would NEVER have the patience to help him. I would love to say that I do...but I would end up frustrated with him and make it worse. For example, he's good with math and science and I had to take a remedial math class in college because I'm so terrible with it. Me trying to help him with math is a joke in more ways than one!

    I really appreciate your comments though...you have given me much to think about!

  6. #36
    Senior Member Lambchop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mo View Post
    A few weeks back, I was helping my mother 'spring-clean' when I came across a school report form from when I was in the 6th grade. The comments from the (unhealthy ESxJ) class teacher and (ESTJ) headmistress were (verbatim) "He's a boy who is capable of far much better work but too carefree to get down to serious revision. Please be yourself.... He can be bright but he doesn't love his work at all... very friendly and outgoing.... X is capable of being in the top 5 of the class. He only requires keenness, seriousness and determination... X is capable but not serious with his work..." (It's a long end-year report. I'll scan and put it on my blog someday. I imagine that's what quite a few ISFP reports looks like.)

    Anyway, my point is, I hated school (and, most of the time, my grades reflected that). My parents, an ISFJ and an ESTP who believed one's prowess in school was the measure of a man, REFUSED to understand me and I was yelled at and spanked incessantly and generally made to feel like crap. This continued all the way till university when I got to study something I loved rather than whatever 'irrelevant syllabus' I was 'supposed' to soak in and now, I have a decent job and I'm, admittedly, good at what I do. My father, who had no qualms letting me know that he considered me a failure, now gives me his grudging respect.

    I must say I respect you for wanting to understand your son. I understand that you've discussed this severally with him. Does he have a 'cool' uncle or older person whom he admires? If so, you might want to get them to speak to him and get him to understand the merits (few though they may be :P) of organised education and how it will help him attain his goal in the future. Do some research and get a list of various contemporary music universities (e.g. Berkelee) with distinguished alumni and get them to explain to him that he'll hone his craft, get even better and, consequently, have a better chance of succeeding once he goes through those channels. Nonetheless, first, he'll have to do well in high school to get there. Works even better if some of his music idols are among those degree-holders.

    All the best, Lambchop. I can only imagine how hard it must be to be a parent and not understand why your son would, in your eyes, 'self-destruct'.

    As for getting 'in' with your son, I'll email you shortly with some tips based on my experiences with my ISFJ mother.
    Mo, this info is so great! All of my son's report cards sound like yours!! What a great idea on seeing if he has a degree holding music idol...I will have my INFP husband do some research into this.

    With regard to the "cool" older person to admire -- over Spring Break this year, I had him "shadow" an aquaintance of mine (he is around 26 I think) who owns his own photography studio and went to an Arts school named Kendell. He really liked him and they took some pictures together, etc. However, I don't know him well enough to ask if my kid can hang out with him on a regular basis and Wyatt leans more towards the music side than the art side, although he likes both! I live in a pretty conservative area where he kind of sticks out already (we moved from Seattle to the midwest -- culture shock!). My husband has talked to him some and my son listens to my husband and likes him...but it doesn't really affect him. I will have to do more research into some local bands maybe, as well.

    I would LOVE to hear whatever your ISFJ mom wants to share! Or whatever you want to share about relating to your ISFJ mom. Your own insights are awesome as well, of course.

    I was going through some of my reports a few minutes ago, out of curosity. I found a few things that say "While doing a great job at succeeding, Lambchop puts a lot of pressure on herself. I'm not sure who she's trying to impress."

  7. #37
    Senior Member Lambchop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    My favourite report comment was something like this; "excelling despite his constant attempts to be mediocre".
    HAHAHA, this is funny....ohhh...poor you!

  8. #38
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambchop View Post
    I was going through some of my reports a few minutes ago, out of curosity. I found a few things that say "While doing a great job at succeeding, Lambchop puts a lot of pressure on herself. I'm not sure who she's trying to impress."
    Ouch!
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  9. #39
    Senior Member Oso Mocoso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambchop View Post
    I guess I question the posters who say that he'll love the freedom as an adult. You are "free", but you have responsibilities that take the place of the freedom. Like bills and rent and food and car insurance and all of the other things that "free" adults have to deal with. Sure, I can choose whether or not to go to college, but I'm not just free to do whatever I want to. Although honestly...it's hard for me to relate to freedom. I became a mom at 16 and have been one ever since. I never really had "freedom" for all intensive purposes...so maybe I'm not relating correctly.

    So, if he drops out at 16 -- if he's not going to school, then I would expect him to contribute towards his living expenses at home. He would have to get a job and pay, like my older son does. When my older son goes back to being a full time college student, I cut him slack because he's in school.

    I don't know....I just want to do what's best for my son and help him succeed and be happy in life.
    Oh jeez ... the care and feeding of an ISFP. I don't have a lot of success to speak of in this regard, but I'll share with you my experiences. When I was going to school on my first day of Kindergarten, an ISFP decided spontaneously that we were friends. A few weeks later, I was being bullied on my school bus and he leaped to my defense shouting "You stay away from my best friend!" and I decided not to argue with him. We were still best friends when we went to different colleges, and once we lived in different states we didn't do well at staying in touch.

    In college, I went through different roommates at a fast rate until I ended up with ... another ISFP. We clicked pretty well, and I stuck with him for the rest of the year. He didn't get along with my ENTP girlfriend, and he got his own place the next year but we remained close for the rest of college. He had problems with drug abuse and I ended up (I'm ashamed to admit) kind of enabling him. For example if he ended up getting high somewhere and needing a ride, I'd usually provide one without judging him too much. In retrospect, he might have been better off if I'd said something. When I was driving him around, his drug use wasn't disrupting his life really, but later on after he graduated it kind of got out of control for a while.

    Post graduation ... who did I end up dating? An ISFP. Much like with my childhood friend, at one point she just sort of announced to me that she was my girlfriend. Since we were both naked at the time, I didn't argue with her. Over a decade later, we're still together and married now.

    My experience with ISFPs is that trying to do any kind of strict disciplinarian thing with them COMPLETELY doesn't work. They immediately rebel and resent the hell out of you. You can bargain with them, but for the most part they're going to want to do what they want. In terms of influencing them, I've found that simply letting them know they're appreciated goes a long way. For example, if I was trying to get my boyhood friend to do something or if I'm trying to get my wife to do something, a good way of influencing them is just to say "You know? When you did X for me, I really appreciated it a lot. Thank you very much." Then, you continue buttering them up. My wife sometimes complains that (in her words) I am flattering her, but she clearly enjoys being praised. The way I see it, as long as what I tell her is heartfelt and true, there's no dishonesty in telling her what I think if it makes her feel good.

    Now ... that being said, my wife and I started dating when she was in art school and I tried to get her to pursue a more ambitious career once she got out. That didn't happen. She's content to work an entry level job and work on her artwork in her spare time when she's not playing video games or something. So ... I pay nearly all of our bills. Good luck with your ISFP.

  10. #40
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    Have you thought about having him taking a year off from school?

    He is 14. It is natural to go through a rebellious stage right now. His view of the world is limited. He doesn't understand his chances of making it in the music world.

    I suggest him getting a job for one year. Have him travel the country. Try to show him the world outside of high school. Concentrate on teaching him PRACTICAL things that he can see using in his everyday life. Meet bands on the road and see how so many with talent don't make it.

    I wish I took a year off and try to figure out what the real world was like.

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