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  1. #11

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    I had a teacher in high school (in his mid 30's at that time, I believe) who had switched jobs 7 times in 7 years. He was also one of the coolest teachers I have had, and is still teaching at that school (As of two years ago, at least. I don't know when he retires).

    He was a Mechanical Engineer, a writer, an NFL referee, and through various job changes ended up teaching at that school. He didn't regret his job changes one bit, and I think it served him well. While he was teaching, he would sometimes travel to referee in an NFL football game.

    He took the MBTI and tested ISTP (I was told by another teacher), but I think a little exploration of careers, early on, is a good thing for any type.
    I don't think anyone would have "typed" him to be a high-school teacher (taught "principles of technology" and "engineering professionalism"), but that's where he ended up and he is good at that job too.

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  2. #12
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    Well, not sure how the trades work in the US, but in Canada you actually work under a journeyman as an apprentice for a certain amount of hours with times for courses plugged in every year. Apprenticeships tend to last between 3-5 years depending on the trade. Basically most of your training is done doing the thing wrather than someone preaching to you about it.
    I think that is generally how it works here too, but I can't speak for all of the trades.
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  3. #13
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I think that is generally how it works here too, but I can't speak for all of the trades.
    *nod* I'm just generalizing the information I've been picking up; I'm actually looking at Industrial Electrical or Refrigeration/HVAC myself.
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  4. #14
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    Some good posts are very spot on. I'm not saying ISTPs should not do psychology, biology, or boring trivial studies but we do what we're best at in life. I know lost ISTPs who go into accounting who look all distant and bored. I know ISTPs that waste their time doing retail/customer service oriented jobs which they feel all mentallity drained. 4-year degrees does not define your true self or definitely not even your personality. I have 2 x 2-year technical degrees which outweigh 4 year degrees. I really hate it when job ad's say " 4 year degree REQUIRED" what the hell does that mean? I can be some jerkoff and do some liberal arts degree like psychology and just continue to jerkoff working at a job which has nothing to do with psychology except maybe dealing with customers.

    Even when I go dating, some "intellect" 60-70hour worker bee women ignore me if I say I never got a bachelors. You know, back in the middle ages us dumb SP types were pimps in the days because we had farming, hunting, killing skills. I'd be banging probably broads left and right without having to go through a filter process. Alright that's enough of my rant.

  5. #15
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    You STPs slay me
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    The best advice is to get him into a whole lot of things. It's true that ISTPs are flighty, but at the same time they tend to find passions and really work on it. Offering a variety of options and letting them try them are good. I've found that an ISTP will take up engineering if it will let them skateboard better; but they won't do anything unless it is a means to an end... their end. Jobs are similar.
    I like this advice best. I have an ISTP cousin, who was quite the hellraiser when we were in high school (most people weren't aware of it, because he was very secretive about it). He learned quickly but never seemed to get interested in anything. He ended up quiting high school (but taught himself classical guitar - and became quite proficient). Practiced hours and hours every day. He pretty much floated through life with no purpose (except his guitar) and ended up draining his parents resources for a while.

    Then one day around age 28, he got into computers out of nowhere (he was a tech illiterate before then), and got himself into some entry level network admin job and within a few years he was making six figures and became very proficient at his job. The family used to very worried about him; i recently when I saw him a family gathering he informed me the only thing he regrets in life, is not getting into a technology related field earlier - he thought it was too geeky and uninteresting to him earlier in life; until he saw some purpose in it.

    So bottom line, I think it's best to get him exposed to as many things as possible and hope something sticks. I've noticed pressuring them to do things often backfires. They can be the most stubborn of all the types and often refuse to do what you say just to spite you (because they feel like they're being bossed or nagged when you are giving them advice).

    My ex girlfriend (ISTP) had a similar trajectory, she pretty much had no career aspirations at all after graduating from a good college. Pretty much did the bare minimum to get by so she could make a living - then one day out of nowhere she got fascinated by a highly specialized field within urban planning. Taught herself everything about the subject, then found a program and enrolled back into school to get her masters (and started her own business doing garden installations while still at school). She was pretty much directionless her entire life and then BAM - she knew what she wanted to do and hasn't looked back since.

  7. #17
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    Sounds like a few of the trades would be good for him. God knows, there are enough of them retiring that he'd be a welcome asset.
    Really.
    What kind of information do you have about that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Sounds like electrician is a possible career path then? Not sure how long of a course that is...fairly sure that's a college course. A lot of courses in college are only 2-3 years, though I imagine the most complex (and higher-paid) jobs would be longer courses. I don't know much about college though, since me and most of my friends are in university.

    I don't think there are many opportunities for jobs without going to college or university, unless you happen to be extraordinarily gifted in some area. I would say that college would be the best bet if he wants to do hands-on work for a career.

    Has he talked to a career counsellor yet? There should be something like that at his high school, and they can sometimes be very helpful--though a lot of them over-emphasize university education. Someone like that could tell him about some possible career options that he and your family might not know about.

    EDIT: wait, in the US university is called college and college is called something else like trade schools or technical schools or something, right? When I said college above, I meant "one of those places where you're taught a trade through mostly hands-on learning".
    Ok thanks.
    I guess I'm wondering what other ISTPs do, or want to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    My sister is an ISTP also and she's having the same issues your son is having about the direction of her life. Our family is basically learning not to pressure her and let her make her own decisions about what she eventually wants to do. It is a bit difficult though because she tends to float from job to job and we're worried about her having security and skills that can eventually stabilize her.

    The idea that she expresses most frequently about her career is that she doesn't want to have a boss hanging over her head. The job she's been most content with so far is field representative for two different companies. All she had to do is provide her own transportation. I think that position required her two greatest assets: troubleshooting with customers and freedom to make her own schedule. These type of jobs exist and they actually pay quite well. The downside is they're very high turnover/stress.

    Maybe your son can figure out what his best qualities are and find jobs (yes plural, he may not want to just do one thing) that align with what he naturally does best. My sis has a lot of different interests that she manages to capitalize on. She is cameraperson on the side and does amateur work for people's weddings and parties. It's quick and easy and she enjoys it. She also has an online store where she sells wholesale car audio equipment. I think she's very quick to seize on opportunities for herself and follow them up.

    You can also check out the Occupational Handbook to see what careers are available that he would enjoy and are not going to dead-end soon.
    Thanks for that.
    It's important not to force our children to do something they don't want to do.
    My thinking is that of "Do What You Are" the career book.
    I'm hoping to help him discover what options are out there for him that he might enjoy-
    sort of like a career counselor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    ...But it's still hard being a parent -- wanting to give the flex, yet also wanting to make sure that our children have not been shortchanged just because we did not intervene or guide them as we might have.
    Exactly how I feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    ...In any case, I've noticed that ISTPs tend to prefer localized problem solving - trades is a good option. After that, it seems to break down into if they like working with their hands, how they feel when they finish something and how people orientated they are (ie: How S, how P and how IT). The ISTPs I know tend to like like building something, anything, just for the sake of building it. It could be a car, it could be a house... it could be a spreadsheet. A couple I know like doing helpdesk support (weaker T, I presume) simply because it lets them work a variety of problems in their field. ...
    Thanks!
    That's some information I didn't have before.

    What makes you an exception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    This is a good point. From my perspective what would be ideal is having many different types of careers introduced, in a very no-pressure sort of way, while having lots of information available to look up on my own, and then being trusted to be capable of choosing my career path totally on my own.

    I'm grateful that my family pretty much ignored the topic of careers until I'd chosen a vague area (actually they still pretty much ignore it), which they seem to be reasonably happy with anyway.
    I know you're right.
    I am trying to suggest options he might want to consider.
    I don't think I can ignore it altogether.
    You know why that's so hard for me?
    Because I didn't go to college and I don't type fast.
    The only jobs I qualify for are jobs I hate and am not suited for
    like waitressing or sales or receptionist.

    Actually, I once worked at Dunkin Donuts
    and after a probationary period of two weeks,
    they decided they didn't want me!
    It's pretty bad when Dunkin Donuts won't take you!

    If I hadn't have gotten married and had a husband to support me,
    I probably would have ended up working in a bar for the rest of my life,
    and I'm sure would have blown my brains out by now.

    I don't want to see my son go through life broke.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think my dad is an ISTP. He is pushing sixty and he never decided what he wanted to do when he grew up. When his GI Bill was about to run out he just went for a default degree in electronics technology because that's what the Marines trained him to do.

    It's hardly his greatest passion, but it was easy for him. He was good at it. Go with the flow, you know?

    It did pretty well for him most of his life. Health problems, age discrimination, and US manufacturing tanking has hurt him in recent years, but I don't think there's really any avoiding that kind of thing.
    Thank you.
    My husband is an ISTP also.
    He received radio technology training in the Navy.
    That's what he's been doing for 30 years.
    Some aspects of his jobs have used his special talents,
    so sometimes he has enjoyed what he's doing.
    One position allowed him to travel 6-10 times a year, for a week at a time.
    He went to Hawaii twice.
    He liked the travel a lot.

    Thanks for your input.

    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    Well, not sure how the trades work in the US, but in Canada you actually work under a journeyman as an apprentice for a certain amount of hours with times for courses plugged in every year. Apprenticeships tend to last between 3-5 years depending on the trade. Basically most of your training is done doing the thing rather than someone preaching to you about it.
    I think it's that way in the US, too.
    He would like the hands-on learning approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I had a teacher in high school (in his mid 30's at that time, I believe) who had switched jobs 7 times in 7 years. He was also one of the coolest teachers I have had, and is still teaching at that school (As of two years ago, at least. I don't know when he retires).

    He was a Mechanical Engineer, a writer, an NFL referee, and through various job changes ended up teaching at that school. He didn't regret his job changes one bit, and I think it served him well. While he was teaching, he would sometimes travel to referee in an NFL football game.

    He took the MBTI and tested ISTP (I was told by another teacher), but I think a little exploration of careers, early on, is a good thing for any type.
    I don't think anyone would have "typed" him to be a high-school teacher (taught "principles of technology" and "engineering professionalism"), but that's where he ended up and he is good at that job too.
    Hmmm...
    Thank you.
    I'll remember that.
    Last edited by MacGuffin; 09-29-2007 at 10:50 PM. Reason: merged posts

  8. #18
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Really.
    What kind of information do you have about that?
    Bottom of the first page; but like I said: I'm in Canada so some things may or may not be different. Metamorphosis seems to think I'm pretty close though on what it's like in the US.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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  9. #19
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Thanks!
    That's some information I didn't have before.

    What makes you an exception?
    /me points to my signature link to post 29.

    In short, I grew up believing I was an INTP and pursued those directions very much. It's kind of sad because I was a huge sports guy (although not the way people think of sports - solo sports like skiing, swimming... and limited sports like tennis) and chose computers as my escape. Although I love technology, I hit a brick wall with technology... I then tried philosophy and psychology with similar brick walls. Eventually I went into finance, although I needed a job in the meantime... and that job led into this one. I'm only now accepting my nature better and starting to adjust the way I do things. Least work is paying for my courses this time.

    But honestly, looking back, there are just too many factors with ISTPs to nail it down. Look into finance if there is a math inclination... I was failing math in elementary school, but my parents put me into Kumon - math tutoring thing and now... well, I'm decidedly not bad at it, so don't judge it by school measurements alone. They bought me a computer and I loved that. They put me into chess club, skiing, tennis... just about everything. It was the best thing possible for me. It seems like we come into our own at a later age if we are able to try enough things. The emphasis on past experiences is very important. Most of the stories here are dramatic versions of "wow, I found what I wanted!"... but really, we want to do everything. At some point something from our past or present opens up some kind of door and the rest is history.

    Course, this refers to the period between one and two decades ago so things have changed. But I know more recent STPs that loved building models... everything from just models to racing cars to planes/helis. The same SPs show remarkable talent with strange things, like 3d modeling and such.

    And not to be unPC yet again today, intelligence plays a large part in this as well. In general, significantly above average SPs seem to have a knack for doing just about everything, but in particular, they tend to be information processors (ie: analysts and such). I thought of that as an INTP trait for a long time until I came across some research on how higher corporate SPs act - seems that's the trend.

    So, IMO, it's hard to give any direct advice. Pushing them to do things is probably the single most important thing. Instead of a summer job as McDonalds, a job packing computers (me!) is better... so is volunteer work, so are camps... anything, really. It doesn't even have to depend on means, really, since a lot of the things can be cheap or free.

    But motivation might be tough - the sensitive parts for ISTPs is being able to do something. Always emphasise what they'd be able to do (ie: work for a mechanic? Fix a girl's car! Dance? Think Bond!) with their experience.

  10. #20
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    *nod* I'm just generalizing the information I've been picking up; I'm actually looking at Industrial Electrical or Refrigeration/HVAC myself.
    How is Industrial Electrical different from regular Electrician as far as Job Outlook goes, and salary forecast?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yomama99 View Post
    Some good posts are very spot on. I'm not saying ISTPs should not do psychology, biology, or boring trivial studies but we do what we're best at in life. I know lost ISTPs who go into accounting who look all distant and bored. I know ISTPs that waste their time doing retail/customer service oriented jobs which they feel all mentallity drained. 4-year degrees does not define your true self or definitely not even your personality. I have 2 x 2-year technical degrees which outweigh 4 year degrees. I really hate it when job ad's say " 4 year degree REQUIRED" what the hell does that mean? I can be some jerkoff and do some liberal arts degree like psychology and just continue to jerkoff working at a job which has nothing to do with psychology except maybe dealing with customers.

    Even when I go dating, some "intellect" 60-70hour worker bee women ignore me if I say I never got a bachelors. You know, back in the middle ages us dumb SP types were pimps in the days because we had farming, hunting, killing skills. I'd be banging probably broads left and right without having to go through a filter process. Alright that's enough of my rant.
    I know what you mean.
    It's not fair,
    and really... kind of stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    I like this advice best. I have an ISTP cousin, who was quite the hellraiser when we were in high school (most people weren't aware of it, because he was very secretive about it). He learned quickly but never seemed to get interested in anything. He ended up quiting high school (but taught himself classical guitar - and became quite proficient). Practiced hours and hours every day. He pretty much floated through life with no purpose (except his guitar) and ended up draining his parents resources for a while.

    Then one day around age 28, he got into computers out of nowhere (he was a tech illiterate before then), and got himself into some entry level network admin job and within a few years he was making six figures and became very proficient at his job. The family used to very worried about him; i recently when I saw him a family gathering he informed me the only thing he regrets in life, is not getting into a technology related field earlier - he thought it was too geeky and uninteresting to him earlier in life; until he saw some purpose in it.

    So bottom line, I think it's best to get him exposed to as many things as possible and hope something sticks. I've noticed pressuring them to do things often backfires. They can be the most stubborn of all the types and often refuse to do what you say just to spite you (because they feel like they're being bossed or nagged when you are giving them advice).

    My ex girlfriend (ISTP) had a similar trajectory, she pretty much had no career aspirations at all after graduating from a good college. Pretty much did the bare minimum to get by so she could make a living - then one day out of nowhere she got fascinated by a highly specialized field within urban planning. Taught herself everything about the subject, then found a program and enrolled back into school to get her masters (and started her own business doing garden installations while still at school). She was pretty much directionless her entire life and then BAM - she knew what she wanted to do and hasn't looked back since.
    Well, you've given me hope.
    I'm going to try to be patient even if it takes a really long time,
    and pray that he finds the thing that he will enjoy.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    /me points to my signature link to post 29.

    In short, I grew up believing I was an INTP and pursued those directions very much. It's kind of sad because I was a huge sports guy (although not the way people think of sports - solo sports like skiing, swimming... and limited sports like tennis)
    My son likes solo sports, too.

    ... Eventually I went into finance, although I needed a job in the meantime... and that job led into this one. ...
    What exactly is a "finance" job?
    What are you doing?

    ... Look into finance if there is a math inclination...
    He's actually very clever at math. He is ahead of his grade level in math.

    ...They put me into chess club, skiing, tennis... just about everything. It was the best thing possible for me.
    My son refuses to do anything we suggest unless he has a friend who is also doing it.
    He is apparently very shy and feels uncomfortable around people he doesn't know.
    You can't tell though because he doesn't really "act shy".

    It seems like we come into our own at a later age if we are able to try enough things. The emphasis on past experiences is very important.
    I will keep this in mind and try to encourage him to spread his wings a little more.
    He just started working at a fancy cafe where a small sandwich is $9 and where they show movies on a 12 ft screen.
    He says he really loves it. There's no telling what he might be exposed to in that environment.
    Maybe it will be good for him.

    And not to be unPC yet again today, intelligence plays a large part in this as well. In general, significantly above average SPs seem to have a knack for doing just about everything, but in particular, they tend to be information processors (ie: analysts and such). I thought of that as an INTP trait for a long time until I came across some research on how higher corporate SPs act - seems that's the trend.
    My son gets Bs in school without trying.
    He goes to class, distracts people, doesn't take notes, doesn't study, and gets Bs.

    So, IMO, it's hard to give any direct advice. Pushing them to do things is probably the single most important thing.
    I know you mean: encourage him to try a lot of things.

    But motivation might be tough - the sensitive parts for ISTPs is being able to do something. Always emphasis what they'd be able to do (ie: work for a mechanic? Fix a girl's car! Dance? Think Bond!) with their experience.
    Ah. Clever!
    (Darn. I don't think he likes girls as much as skateboards yet.)
    Last edited by MacGuffin; 09-29-2007 at 10:50 PM. Reason: merged posts

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