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Thread: Unhealthy ISTP

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    I could always tell when he was lying by this tiny tiny twitch and flicker around his eyes. It used to send me into a barking growling rage and no one could understand why until later when they too figured out he was lying. In the meantime, I just stood there looking crazy and overwrought.
    Sometimes for me it is also the logic of something that throws it off, being Ti dominant. What they say doesnt make sense, I can spot logic inconsistencies easily. What I know doesnt jive with what they say.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Is there not always an Se read/tell you can go on? Like subtleties -- eyes, body posture, repetition, nervous hands, etc? I can suss out a LOT from the eyes and hands, even if I know flat-out that they're lying to me. There was this one guy in particular... I could always tell when he was lying by this tiny tiny twitch and flicker around his eyes. It used to send me into a barking growling rage and no one could understand why until later when they too figured out he was lying. In the meantime, I just stood there looking crazy and overwrought.

    On the web, it can be tricky for anyone. I tend to look for patterns in the piecework -- language, call/response, diction, grammar, etc. Not always enough, to be sure.

    I told my INTJ bff that had I not known him IRL, I would have run away from him because he's scary, and he laughed sheepishly like "I know! Sorry!" I've seen the boy in type and he IS scary. haha!
    See that's the interesting difference between you and I again. You're intuitive about the way people are feeling, and then you back it up with Se+Ti by observing people. But you still trust your intuition more than what you logically observe.

    That's the problem with subconscious Ni and Fe, I don't trust them, never have and never will! Even if my gut, my subconscious, is screaming at me that it just knows someone is feeling a certain way or hiding how they truly feel, I have to tell it to shut up because that's just completely irrational.

    It's almost like a false alarm going off, telling the conscious functions that it needs to pay attention to this person. So then I back that feeling up with Ti+Se, looking for logical inconsistencies in their words or actions, someway to rationalize that feeling.

    So Ti+Se can help me determine that a person may be lying about how they feel by looking for logical inconsistencies, but it still doesn't tell me how they're feeling, because Ti no comprende.

    It really only helps me protect myself and others concerning rational things, like if someone were lying trying to manipulate me into doing something, or trying to take something from me.

    On the other hand, I'm defenseless if the person in question is a feeler, and lying to manipulate the way I feel. Ti+Se can't objectify logical inconsistencies in feelings, because there is no such thing. So when it comes to feeling with another person, I have to put my utmost trust in them not to take advantage of me because I have no way to tell if you aren't being sincere, until Ti finds something, words or actions, it can objectify.

    I've been burned this way before, and I think that's the biggest reason I am so protective of that part of myself, taking a long time to get close to people and only very getting close to none or a few.

  3. #163
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    See that's the interesting difference between you and I again. You're intuitive about the way people are feeling, and then you back it up with Se+Ti by observing people. But you still trust your intuition more than what you logically observe.
    My intuition tends to operate without my consent, so whatever it tells me about a person, I sometimes have no clue as to why I "know" a thing about them, and must wait on my back-up functions to elucidate the mystery. It's like it's own "uncanny valley" experience - like when you see a robot that's so humanoid it gives you the "creeps" and you can't put your finger on just why without some heavy rapid reflection/analysis. Dogs can tell *WHEN* you're going to have a seizure, not *WHY*. I'm the mysterious "why", not the "when". Pinning something down in time is hard for me. Knowing what happened is not hard.

    Sometimes I meet someone and I hear "This man/woman is lying/hiding something" in my head as clear as anything. I'm not sure what use that serves, especially with people I casually meet, except maybe to tell me that I shouldn't trust them but so far, or how to tailor my approach to such a person. It's not just lies. It works on other intangible things too - I've determined that two people were having something of an affair or were inappropriately involved with each other from just one or two brief moments of observation of them doing things that were in no way questionable or suspect. I could just tell they were in love with each other. It's like an aura or a vibe or SOMETHING. Just quivering in the air around people. Their intentions. Maybe it was the silent cues, like the body posture. He spoke mundanities to her in this immaterial way and the cant of his body seemed to lean into her space ever so slightly like he preferred to be very near her but couldn't be. My suspicions were confirmed shortly thereafter.

    BAH!

    I can't explain it. Not to my satisfaction. Very aggravating. A counsellor once told me she thought I'd developed a nervous sensitivity to people as a survival mechanism. I think that may be true. I think it may be an action inside my intuition as well.

    Again, not to say that I don't ever get my lines crossed, because I do. I have off days like everyone else and can be totally disinterested in "seeing" anything if I'm already maxxed out and don't want to care or be bothered. A crafty liar might be able to hold me off for a fair bit too.

    If only we could go back to the days where sniffing each other curiously told us everything.

    That's the problem with subconscious Ni and Fe, I don't trust them, never have and never will! Even if my gut, my subconscious, is screaming at me that it just knows someone is feeling a certain way or hiding how they truly feel, I have to tell it to shut up because that's just completely irrational.
    Well, I'll tell you -- nature vs nurture. I don't know about anyone else, but I was taught to question myself and to put no stock in the good things people said to me or about me, like being "put in my place" was this necessary thing when all it did was damage and undermine me. So when someone would tell me, "Hey, Pink, I love you", I would know with everything in me that it was true, but couldn't believe it. It was too good to be true. It was love directed at ME, so it had to be a land mine. Or a trick. Or something that would be used against me later. The other boot surely had to fall.

    Knowing someone loved me profoundly and having him say to my face that he didn't was obliterating. I could see the giant lie crawling all over him. It killed me. It really killed me. Denying me to save himself from the hangman. Someone can love you deeply and you'll never be able to make them say it. That's what I learned. They'll find the strength somehow to throw you on the fire even while saying "Forgive me".

    This happened to me twice.

    I've never gone down that road again. When Ni reads between the lines, I just sit on it. I don't act.


    It's almost like a false alarm going off, telling the conscious functions that it needs to pay attention to this person. So then I back that feeling up with Ti+Se, looking for logical inconsistencies in their words or actions, someway to rationalize that feeling.

    So Ti+Se can help me determine that a person may be lying about how they feel by looking for logical inconsistencies, but it still doesn't tell me how they're feeling, because Ti no comprende.

    It really only helps me protect myself and others concerning rational things, like if someone were lying trying to manipulate me into doing something, or trying to take something from me.

    On the other hand, I'm defenseless if the person in question is a feeler, and lying to manipulate the way I feel. Ti+Se can't objectify logical inconsistencies in feelings, because there is no such thing. So when it comes to feeling with another person, I have to put my utmost trust in them not to take advantage of me because I have no way to tell if you aren't being sincere, until Ti finds something, words or actions, it can objectify.

    I've been burned this way before, and I think that's the biggest reason I am so protective of that part of myself, taking a long time to get close to people and only very getting close to none or a few.

    My goodness... this sounds crippling! Have you always been this way? Locked into hard logic for input?
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  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    My intuition tends to operate without my consent, so whatever it tells me about a person, I sometimes have no clue as to why I "know" a thing about them, and must wait on my back-up functions to elucidate the mystery. It's like it's own "uncanny valley" experience - like when you see a robot that's so humanoid it gives you the "creeps" and you can't put your finger on just why without some heavy rapid reflection/analysis. Dogs can tell *WHEN* you're going to have a seizure, not *WHY*. I'm the mysterious "why", not the "when". Pinning something down in time is hard for me. Knowing what happened is not hard.

    Sometimes I meet someone and I hear "This man/woman is lying/hiding something" in my head as clear as anything. I'm not sure what use that serves, especially with people I casually meet, except maybe to tell me that I shouldn't trust them but so far, or how to tailor my approach to such a person. It's not just lies. It works on other intangible things too - I've determined that two people were having something of an affair or were inappropriately involved with each other from just one or two brief moments of observation of them doing things that were in no way questionable or suspect. I could just tell they were in love with each other. It's like an aura or a vibe or SOMETHING. Just quivering in the air around people. Their intentions. Maybe it was the silent cues, like the body posture. He spoke mundanities to her in this immaterial way and the cant of his body seemed to lean into her space ever so slightly like he preferred to be very near her but couldn't be. My suspicions were confirmed shortly thereafter.

    BAH!

    I can't explain it. Not to my satisfaction. Very aggravating. A counsellor once told me she thought I'd developed a nervous sensitivity to people as a survival mechanism. I think that may be true. I think it may be an action inside my intuition as well.

    Again, not to say that I don't ever get my lines crossed, because I do. I have off days like everyone else and can be totally disinterested in "seeing" anything if I'm already maxxed out and don't want to care or be bothered. A crafty liar might be able to hold me off for a fair bit too.

    If only we could go back to the days where sniffing each other curiously told us everything.
    That's funny. I'm the "WHEN" dog. When you ask? Why, right now of course!

    Nature is on to something. Animals have instinctual abilities to sense the invisible, but intense energy of emotions.

    I think we also have that sense, but we sometimes tend to dismiss it because it's not easy to objectify the sensations, beyond "I feel".

    Is it a sixth sense? Is it our third eye? Is it paranoid schizophrenia?

    Whatever it is, I think it's important that we pay attention to the vibes we get from other people.


    Well, I'll tell you -- nature vs nurture. I don't know about anyone else, but I was taught to question myself and to put no stock in the good things people said to me or about me, like being "put in my place" was this necessary thing when all it did was damage and undermine me. So when someone would tell me, "Hey, Pink, I love you", I would know with everything in me that it was true, but couldn't believe it. It was too good to be true. It was love directed at ME, so it had to be a land mine. Or a trick. Or something that would be used against me later. The other boot surely had to fall.

    Knowing someone loved me profoundly and having him say to my face that he didn't was obliterating. I could see the giant lie crawling all over him. It killed me. It really killed me. Denying me to save himself from the hangman. Someone can love you deeply and you'll never be able to make them say it. That's what I learned. They'll find the strength somehow to throw you on the fire even while saying "Forgive me".

    This happened to me twice.

    I've never gone down that road again. When Ni reads between the lines, I just sit on it. I don't act.
    Wow. I'm so sorry

    Lying about things like that, especially if both parties know what's true, is difficult for both.

    I've been on the opposite side of that story. Denying my own feelings, only to realize how I really feel when it's already too late. It'll haunt me the rest of my life, but at least it haunts me as an important life lesson.

    Whether it was said or not, isn't it more important that you know they loved you?

    They denied themselves, not you. They lied to themselves, not to you.


    My goodness... this sounds crippling! Have you always been this way? Locked into hard logic for input?
    I was always a robot, until just recently, the past year or couple years, I have started becoming more human.

    I've noticed I've also started developing this sense about people, the sense you describe having all your life. Perhaps it's always been there, I've just never paid attention to it.

    I can't describe it any better than a vibe, an intense form of energy that radiates through the air, perceivable by many different life forms. It helps me feel connected to other people. I can share my feelings, and perceive theirs, without even saying a word.

    It's so bizarre, but I enjoy experiencing it.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephMC939 View Post
    You're probably right. Over the years, my ENFP sister (through positive AND negative experiences) has taught me to be a little more careful about what I say. I've noticed that most people (Except some NFs... I think NFs and STPs have more miscommunication than some) tend to view me as considerate and understanding ... mostly based on my whole "treat others as I want to be treated" belief (It's pretty much the only thing that stops me from being unintentionally insensitive all the live long day). I -try- to be aware. I filter things through my head before I say them. People that know me have learned that I don't usually mean harm, and shrug off some of the comments that come out wrong. Phoenity hit the nail on the head when he said we don't always realize what we say is hurtful until after it is said, and almost always follow up by introspection. In more serious conversations, I've improved on this. I'm -very- particular with my words now. So now it's usually the everyday casual conversation that I mess up on.

    Here's a fun example:
    (While at a Hooter's restaurant, I was joking that I should fill out an application because I was broke and for shits and giggles.... long story... alcohol was involved.... And I didn't go through with it because an ESFJ friend didn't let me. Hooray for ESFJs!)
    Me: "I'm just wearing a Tee-shirt though. I think I should be dressed a little sluttier or something. Hey, Rach (My sister), let me borrow your shirt for a sec...."
    [10 seconds of being stared at.]
    Me: "Aw, crap."

    Just a disclaimer: I don't usually put my thought process into words! So if I spoke what my real thought process would be it would be more like "I'm just wearing a Tee-shirt though. I look kinda crumby. I think I should be dressed either more slutty, or at least a little more cute. Oh... Rach's shirt is cute.... Hey, Rach, let me borrow your shirt for a sec!"
    I think the way you originally said it was funny. I don't see anything wrong with it. Me and my sisters talk to each other that way, and laugh about it.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I think the way you originally said it was funny. I don't see anything wrong with it. Me and my sisters talk to each other that way, and laugh about it.
    Hahaha.. yeah, she gave me the blank stare for a minute, then burst out laughing. She understands these slip ups happen... but has trouble with them in a more serious atmosphere. So when we're in a joking mood, it's all good. I only gave this example because it was the first one to come to mind
    I have an inner monologue that sounds strikingly similar to something off Animal Planet.

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    My ISTP was quite a lot like the description heart gave on the first page of this thread. He's made quite a bit of progress on that front over the years, but it still resurfaces at times.

    I think his worst sides, which really are what bar him from getting and/or keeping a girlfriend (which is something it bothers him that he can't do), are that he's quite simply very overly frugal with his money - he'll spend it like it's never ending on his pet projects like restoring a bike or something, but he doesn't spend on other people if he can avoid it at all and he won't spend on himself for what he considers "unnecessaries". This can be a problem when for example, we go on vacation together and I end up not really being able to do anything fun that involves spending money, because he won't do it and it's not the sorta thing you can do alone. He's happy to walk around taking photos, so he just does that, and expects me to be happy to walk around while he takes photos then get back in the car and go somewhere else for him to take photos. He's not interested in soaking up the atmosphere of a place or trying the local food or whatever, as it involves spending money on things he doesn't consider important. That same frugality manifests itself in his relationships, where it's his girlfriend that he's stopping from having fun or forcing to go out alone to have fun with just her money, he seems to just want to sit in and watch TV/go through his Flickr albums and stuff every night.

    And also, he's really not very romantic at all - in fact he denounces things that I know his girlfriends would've appreciated in the past as "gay", just little gentlemanly/chivalrous gestures and stuff, he won't do any of it.

    He tends to get worse with these things when he's down in the dumps, but then that creates a viscious cycle where these unattractive traits of stinginess and crassness get magnified and prevent him from obtaining or achieving the things he needs to feel better and back to his good self, when those traits are more controlled and seen less often. When he's feeling good, he's much more open handed and uh, well, "courtly"
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenity View Post
    Fe is subconscious, I have to consciously divert attention from one area to another, go inside my head and introspect, to consider how I'm making other people feel. And even when I do, since it is an inferior function, I'm constantly second-guessing myself because I don't actually know how I'm making other people feel. Hell, most of the time I don't even know how I feel.
    Ohmygod, thank you. That describes me exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenity View Post
    What I would also prefer to happen is that, if anyone is ever offended by anything I ever say, all they need to do is make me aware, and I will offer my sincerest apology, because that was never my intention in the first place, and ultimately I just want everyone to do want they want, say what they want, and to be happy.

    I'm just a peace-loving hippie at heart. But my exterior and personality doesn't easily reflect that.
    YES!

    It was so funny, recently a friend was showing me her video from spanish class when she was in high school to show me the background behind an inside joke (which is pretty funny). When I asked her if it was a school project, she said it was and I said, "Oh so that's why it's so lame." I noted her silence and I think I sensed the ever minutest tinge of vibration as if she was somewhat shocked by the comment so I was like, "I mean y'know like as in a school project kinda way," and hoped that redeemed me.

    I've had to put my foot in my mouth so many times. I've learned over the years not to say those things because I get pretty embarrassed about it and it makes me feel immature. I'm fairly tactful now, I mean I only say things if the person's not around... whoops. I guess that's not an amazingly good thing either.
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