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  1. #41
    Controlled Mischief StephMC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewinder View Post
    You're on to something here. Someone who leads with Ni and then uses Se is going to approach life differently than someone who uses Se to get info and then Ni to extrapolate from there. NJs seem to start with a goal in mind, and once they've decided what they want, they look around them (tertiary Se) to get the lay of the land and see what has to change. I start with the present in mind and see where all the options might lead me and which ones I like or should avoid.

    When Ni follows from Se, it feels like I'm receiving an alert about the current situation, like hearing a traffic report of a tie up on the bridge ahead. Better take an alternate route! But when Ni is unattached to anything it feels spooky and spectral. It feels like a dark premonition that is too vague to do anything about. It's that shiver I get up my back sometimes.
    Interesting... I experience Se + Ni like that too... Probably my #1 save-my-own-ass tactic. I take in my environment, sense something wrong, then extrapolate it to what it means and how I should respond, then act on it. It's almost instantaneous. But you're right... Ni not paired with my Ti or Se is very spooky. Those random "Aha!" moments come out of no where and being a strong Se user I'm like... "Wait... but where'd I gather the information for that idea?" I use it very unconsciously.

  2. #42
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    The downside of Ni summed up in two words: wrong assumptions.
    Yeah, that's my concern, and I have so far seen very little upside that can't be accomplished better without the assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Someone tells you a long story. However, the part where they talked about what they did after the club sticks out as 'odd'. You know with certainty there is a problem with this part of the story, but are not sure what it is. So you start picking at it with questions to try and either pull the lie out or make everything properly fit together again.
    So, let me see if I'm understanding this, are you saying rather than incorrect details of a story sticking out, you simply have a feeling it doesn't sound right, and ask yourself questions to determine the incorrect details?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewinder View Post
    A good use of Se and Ni together is in driving a manual transmission car (so many IsxPs drive stick for that reason). The Se helps you with the co-ordination and clutch feel and quickly getting to the catch point on a hill, for example). But then Ni helps you look ahead to road conditions to see what gear you should be in. I might look ahead to see if the next light is red or not. If it's red and has obviously been that way for a while (a few cars stacked up) then I may not gear to 4th. I might stay in 2nd and be light on the gas and I'll be in the right gear just as the light has turned to green and the cars ahead are starting up. Se and Ni are also great together in art, cooking, flirting with girls!
    Yeah, again, here's another case where I think you are taking actions and calling them Ni without real consideration. You consider possibilities of the road based on your past experience with the road. You learn by experience and noticing the details of your environment and recalling the relevant things when you need them again. Still seems like Sensing to me. It's experience-based, not some sort of vision of the future.

    And I don't understand what you mean by "so many IsxPs drive stick for that reason." What reason? And what how many "IsxPs" have you polled on their driving preferences?

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    You gotta admit psych powers can be positive, even if it is just simulated psychic powers.

    Obviously, Ni users don't have real clairvoyance or mind-reading abilities. But their processing of experience makes it so they have amazing predictive powers.

    I know an infj that can understand the giberish of the most inarticulate of pepole...and an amazing ability to predict where people he knows are and why they are there...as well as what is going on in people lives without being told.

    This can also be bad, because even when they don't have the experience to predict well, they will still attempt to do so. But it is amzing how often it actually works.
    Yeah, again I'm skeptical. Anyone can get lucky. I am still not convinced there is truly any psychic powers. It still sounds like Jung or Myers or somebody made something up to make people feel like every "type" had something special about them, so we could all join hands and sing in harmony and all that mess.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Here you go Jeffster...

    I hope it's understandable. I know science and chemistry isn't really your thing... but I think it's an illustrative example of Ni in action.

    Nightning describes Ni with snakes and benzene rings (large mp3 file)
    I love hearing you, nightning. But yeah the subject was about as exciting as paint drying. Next time read the phonebook. So, the guy had visions of rings and so made a scientific discovery based on that? Hmm..maybe "Ni" is actually divine intervention. It would follow my theory that God likes to mess with people.
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  3. #43
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I wish you had never started this thread. You wasted our time for nothing. You absolutely refuse to listen to anything that's said, reject all examples of Ni that are offered, and show ways that they could be something other than Ni, and keep repeating your mantra of "Ni is not positive, does only things that other functions could do but in an inferior way, and consists of nothing but hidden assumptions." Well, guess what? You can take ANY action or concrete example, and find a way to construe it so that it aligns with more than one function. So if you're dead set on not acknowledging anything positive being associated with Ni, you could easily rationalize that all you want.

    You've clearly already made up your mind about what Ni is, and nothing anyone says matters, does it? I mean, I might get that you wouldn't buy anything us NJs said because we're too "out there," but you won't even listen to the experiences of people in your own temperament. That's just stubbornness and arrogance.

    I'm sorry I sound so frustrated, Jeffster. I mean, I do like you as a person and everything, but this has been exasperating and ridiculous. Trying to get someone to acknowledge that they've misinterpreted a theoretical pattern, when they're doing everything in their power to defend their present understanding of it against any new ideas or information, is near impossible.

    Please, for goodness sake, stick to using dichotomies and temperament. You understand them well, and it's apparent to me that they work better for you than functions. So please, use them, and leave the functions ALONE. They'll only mess up your fairly good understanding of MBTI. They help some people, but I believe they'll only mess things up for you.

    So, you've won. You have a stronger will than the entire rest of the forum. Are you pleased?

  4. #44
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Wait, is that for real or are you trying to demonstrate Ni again by jumping to conclusions?

    Because if I refused to listen, I wouldn't have started the thread. I am reading everything and considering it. I told you I would challenge things. Nothing has worth unless it holds up to scrutiny. I pick at things because I am trying to get beyond the "This is so because I kinda feel like it might be so" attitudes and encourage people to challenge their own notions as I am inviting people to do the same for mine. I'm sorry if you have given up on it, because I have enjoyed reading your responses.
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  5. #45
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    You're welcome to post anything we've exchanged in our PMs, where I have learned first-hand just how much of a stand-up guy The Jeffster really is. We're pretty much BFF now.
    Thanks, babe.


    So, here's part of what U said in her PM:

    SP coworkers are ten bajillion times better mechanics than I am, they are quicker at selling bikes, but I can with near perfect accuracy see a few minutes ahead of time when theyíre eventually going to piss off a customer or predict when the customer will walk away because Iím looking for the undertones of the customerís experience. I can call ďbuy or sellĒ really well simply by observing nuances, and I had the highest sales of anyone for several months because of it. Thereís no other Ni users at my shop.

    I donít think Ni causes conflicts any more than SP causes conflicts. Rather, my POV is that Ni forsees conflicts, and because Ni users are J types, they head it off before it causes a problem. But then the non-Ni users donít experience the end result because the Ni user cut it off at the pass, and this happens ad infinitum until the Ni user volcanoes all their pent-up feelings.

    I thought that was a really good point, as it seems that there is a different way of "picking up cues" from people. It's hard for me to perceive it, because I don't know that I've done it. But I suppose I have. It might be that "leap in the dark" type of gamble that SPs can do, that might be our version of Ni right there. But I don't know, I'm just throwing that out there. Still pondering on it for sure. Hey, I had to do something since mlb.tv won't let me watch the archived all-star game! :steam:

    Anyway, thanks Usehername for your contribution.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  6. #46
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Hah Jeffster... divine interventions indeed... you know how they say prophet hear the messages from god... perhaps it's not Ni but actually the voice from god for real.

    What ygolo mentioned about INFJ understanding inarticulate rambling is likely a function of Ni though. Of course an INTJ likely can explain each iteration loop for you better but that's essentially what you go through in trying to understand something. A complex game of mastermind. You test to see whether something works, is there a red anywhere in the pattern? If there is, you keep it and test something else. So you're refining your guesses in every turn. Until eventually you come up with the most likely solution.

    Too abstract?
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  7. #47
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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  8. #48
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Wait, is that for real or are you trying to demonstrate Ni again by jumping to conclusions?
    Unfortunately, it's real.
    I am reading everything and considering it.
    You're reading everything. I don't think that's the same as considering everything, because you're not actually being open-minded enough to do anything except scrutinize/dismiss it. You don't even reach the point of entertaining the idea.
    I told you I would challenge things. Nothing has worth unless it holds up to scrutiny.
    Yes, but I thought you would be reasonable. You're just challenging things in a defensive way that doesn't make any sense, assuming that your starting point is correct and dismissing anything that tries to move you from it unless it hits you REALLY hard. It's like you're an inflatable punching bag-thing, and you're demanding that everyone hit you until someone actually hits you hard enough that your base is knocked over a certain line you've drawn, before you'll change your mind. That's what talking to you feels like, mentally.

    Basically, you're scrutinizing things, but only by your own standards. You won't consider logic because it sounds like "abstract intellectual nonsense," and you won't consider experiences because they're "contrived" or "coincidental." There's really only a very narrow field of things you're even looking at, and they're the HARDEST ones to use for the illustration of MBTI.

    You're basically demanding to see everyday, practical choice or activity unquestionably reduced to functional terms, and the truth is, that kind of thing doesn't have anything to do with functions, and certainly can't be made unquestionable. It's just something people do. Functions are designed to describe behavior on a more abstract level than what you're trying to consider here. You're trying to use them to do something they weren't intended to do. In other words, they don't WORK at the level you're trying use them on. They just don't. It's the same reason cooking directions change as you get past certain altitudes, or in space. Because things are different, and work differently up there, than they do down here.
    I pick at things because I am trying to get beyond the "This is so because I kinda feel like it might be so" attitudes and encourage people to challenge their own notions as I am inviting people to do the same for mine.
    Okay, let me be more candid, then. I don't think your idea (or any particular idea) of what the functions are holds up to scrutiny, either. So I think that until you can see something positive in all the functions, you just shouldn't look at things in terms of them.

    I mean, I do get where you're coming from. If you don't believe me, look up a post called "Confusing Functions" that I made when I first got here.
    I'm sorry if you have given up on it, because I have enjoyed reading your responses.
    Me too. But the problem is that you're not spelling out or outlining your argument/current beliefs, or the parameters the solution or argument you finally accept will have to fall with in, so I can't see what I'm up against. Throwing punches in the dark, at an enemy you can't see, is not fun.

    So, to sum it up, the situation it feels like you've put me in trying to respond, is one of trying to knock an inflatable punching bag over a line with repeated punches... while blindfolded and unable to see the punching bag.

    I'm sorry that these metaphors probably don't make much sense, but it's hard to articulate my internal state in any other way.

    You know what? You're right, I haven't tried hard enough. I'm not giving up that easily, I was just really tired earlier because some other guy acted like he knew what Ni was all about, and I had very little patience left after dealing with him and his dismissal. But I've had a nap since then, and I feel like I'm up to more.

  9. #49
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    You're reading everything. I don't think that's the same as considering everything, because you're not actually being open-minded enough to do anything except scrutinize/dismiss it. You don't even reach the point of entertaining the idea.
    Once again you're making untrue assumptions. I am entertaining every idea that isn't directly telling me something that I know is false, such as "You don't even reach the point of entertaining the idea."


    Yes, but I thought you would be reasonable. You're just challenging things in a defensive way that doesn't make any sense, assuming that your starting point is correct and dismissing anything that tries to move you from it unless it hits you REALLY hard. It's like you're an inflatable punching bag-thing, and you're demanding that everyone hit you until someone actually hits you hard enough that your base is knocked over a certain line you've drawn, before you'll change your mind. That's what talking to you feels like, mentally.
    Okay, partially right, but not entirely. I am NOT assuming my starting point is correct. I am taking each individual "punch" and responding to that with the ideas I get about that. I'd love to be knocked out, yes, but I am not expecting it, and not defensive any more than it takes to not just swallow what is thrown at me without examining it further and seeing if I think it has merit. You are making it more difficult on yourself by thinking of me as a target you have to knock out. YOU have created that scenario, not me.

    Basically, you're scrutinizing things, but only by your own standards.
    Well, of course. Who else's standards would I use?

    You're basically demanding to see everyday, practical choice or activity unquestionably reduced to functional terms, and the truth is, that kind of thing doesn't have anything to do with functions, and certainly can't be made unquestionable. It's just something people do. Functions are designed to describe behavior on a more abstract level than what you're trying to consider here. You're trying to use them to do something they weren't intended to do. In other words, they don't WORK at the level you're trying use them on. They just don't. It's the same reason cooking directions change as you get past certain altitudes, or in space. Because things are different, and work differently up there, than they do down here.
    No, I am not demanding that, in FACT, I don't think it can be done, which to the extent that I have a point, is the whole one! I agree with almost your whole paragraph here, and that is why I am challenging the set-in-stone function order that people keep spouting as if they KNOW these things when there's no real way they can without making "confirmation bias" type assumptions. If I followed the prevailing attitude around here, I would say something like "I'm ISFP, so my tertiary function is Ni, so these things I do here must be Ni, since I must use that for something." I believe that is like deciding where the end zone is on a football field by how far the running back ran - in other words, cart before the horse, backwards.

    So, thank you for helping continue to prove my viewpoint that brain function is not as simple as people are making it out to be, and that when people say stuff like "that was my Se-Ni at work", they are making a giant guess that really isn't provable in any way and just comes off as a cute way to label something.


    Me too. But the problem is that you're not spelling out or outlining your argument/current beliefs, or the parameters the solution or argument you finally accept will have to fall with in, so I can't see what I'm up against. Throwing punches in the dark, at an enemy you can't see, is not fun.

    So, to sum it up, the situation it feels like you've put me in trying to respond, is one of trying to knock an inflatable punching bag over a line with repeated punches... while blindfolded and unable to see the punching bag.
    Well, then I suggest you re-orient, because you have put yourself in that situation not me. I am simply information gathering, and I'm doing so in an interactive way, that allows me to challenge and question ideas and actually get response, rather than just reading a website somebody wrote and having a ton of questions but no one to ask. I'm not spelling out or outlining my current beliefs because they aren't substantial enough on this topic yet to even have a coherent outline. I think I have made my basic view clear as to why I started this topic. I read several descriptions of what "Ni" is supposed to be, and found almost all of what I read to be negative attributes. So I was looking for people to tell me what the positive ones are. I am slowly starting to learn the possibilities of this. Of course I remain skeptical, and if you are expecting me, a hardcore SP if ever there was one, to at one point just say "Okay, I totally buy into this!" then you are expecting the impossible. The only things I totally buy into are what I can see demonstrated before me and perceive with my own senses.

    But you're the one who's seeing me as the enemy. I don't see anyone here as my enemy, nor do I see "Ni", an abstract concept, as an enemy. I am simply trying to understand better what these things mean, and determine for myself if they have value to me. Well, that and get attention from people, which is my primary motivation for most things. I am a sensation-seeker, and have found the best way to get responses on this forum is to challenge people to explain things, hence the topic.

    You know what? You're right, I haven't tried hard enough. I'm not giving up that easily, I was just really tired earlier because some other guy acted like he knew what Ni was all about, and I had very little patience left after dealing with him and his dismissal. But I've had a nap since then, and I feel like I'm up to more.
    That's the spirit! I think if you stop thinking of me as your enemy and more as your student, you should be a lot more relaxed.
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  10. #50
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    It was bad of me to stir, using your post as an example of Ni.
    Nah, it wasn't bad. This whole topic is pretty much stirring on my part.

    Thanks for the article. And I am not ignoring the earlier posts by Ath and Quin that came right before wolfy's, but I don't have time to respond to them now. Hopefully later today I will, thanks everybody for the responses, I am enjoying them.
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