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  1. #11
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    An ENTJ female has been in a relationship with an ESFP guy for over a year. She says everything was going great until recently. He won't tell her what the matter is, and keeps telling her - in spite of his describing her as smart, loving, loyal and giving - that she's trying to "manipulate" him. He has a bad past history with women trying to do this to him, and ENTJ feels this is being projected onto her. She says he won't listen to her, tell her what the matter is, is making wild connections between things that aren't related, and is pulling back from her for reasons she can't fathom.

    ESFPs, she wanted your opinions as to how to handle this because she loves him and wants this to stop - her fault or not, she doesn't care. She feels like she can't reach the rational part of him and is very worried.

    Let me play the role of devil's advocate, or maybe just be the devil.

    This is all based on the female's account of the situation, correct? Makes a difference in interpretation. Technically, this is actually based on your account of someone else's account of a complex situation. Telephone, anyone?

    Possibilities:
    "He won't tell her what the matter is, and keeps telling her - in spite of his describing her as smart, loving, loyal and giving - that she's trying to "manipulate" him."

    - Maybe she has been told what the matter is, she just hasn't heard it.

    - How did he describe these traits to her?

    If it was something like:
    "I really think you're a smart, loving... person, but just this one thing...sometimes I feel you're manipulating me" it's an entirely different scenario than
    "I think you're smart." *Conversation carries on, quickly hostile* "...stop manipulating me you bitch."

    He might be trying to explain something. Due to S-N divide it might be something that is in his body language/tone/context but isn't getting across. Personal experience with ESFPs: it won't be explicitly stated verbally to your face if it could be a point of contention. ENTJ isn't a type that would understand that well. Need to look for changes in tone as they relate to context to understand SFP unspoken desires.

    - He might be using 'manipulation' as cop-out. He might just feel bad about something else entirely and is telling her he feels manipulated but really doesn't...it's just something he considers to be a bad thing and is telling her that to let her know he feels shitty. That isn't productive but we're dealing with a mere mortal here, not a computer.

    - Is he just saying he's being manipulated in general? Anything specific? Are you (Pink) leaving out detail for the sake of privacy? Is she? What he feels manipulated about is probably an important point to consider.

    "He has a bad past history with women trying to do this to him, and ENTJ feels this is being projected onto her."

    - according to?
    - manipulate him in general or in one specific instance/area?
    - could be projected, could be denial. Please pick a poison.

    - "She says he won't listen to her, tell her what the matter is, is making wild connections between things that aren't related, and is pulling back from her for reasons she can't fathom."

    - maybe things are clearly connected but she just fails to (or refuses to) see the connection
    - maybe he's scatterbrained and anxious
    - connection to "is she listening?" suggested above
    - maybe he's afraid of commitment or other reasons listed in other posts

    "ESFPs, she wanted your opinions as to how to handle this because she loves him and wants this to stop - her fault or not, she doesn't care. She feels like she can't reach the rational part of him and is very worried."

    What a sterling individual.

    - maybe she's just "wants things to be alright" which means she's trying to make herself look good.
    - maybe he's a total fool
    - maybe she's afraid to connect to his emotional side and thus demands that the "rational part of him" is the channel of communication
    -maybe he's afraid to connect to her rational side and thus demands that the "emotional part of her" is the channel of communication.
    - maybe she's worried cause he's really good looking and has a cute butt and she's not prone to finding another guy like him
    which is a sarcastic way to say...
    what is she worried about?



    I have a great idea. It's a mat, like twister. On it are conclusions. Jump on it.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    My ESFP son also has issues with rewriting events to suit his own feelings rather than remembering exactly and accurately what happened; it's scary to watch, we've had all other four people in the family without prior collaboration agreeing on the details of the events in question, and he's insisting something happened a different way... a way that either exonerates him or helps him somehow... and he BELIEVES it.
    Seen this first hand. It's just...wow...you don't at all remember how you said this and wanted that?

    Anyway, lots of cross-checking is needed here. And it might not be salvageable, it all depends on the guy and how open he is to listen and reevaluate.
    It might all depend on the girl. Or more likely, it takes two to tango, so on a pure subjective basis they are both screwing up.

    She'd do better trying to appeal to his compassion for other people and his positive love for them... going through logic is NOT the way to deal with an ESFP -- when their feelings are all over the place, they just don't seem to care about logic anymore. She needs to work through S or F style channels.
    Accurate and probably actionable advice.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  3. #13
    Senior Member KarenParker's Avatar
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    Ugh. I totally know how that ESFP feels. I've so been there way too many times. It's not a healthy place to be. I can only speak from my personal experience, but when I have not told someone why I am upset, it's because I feel like I don't want to ruin the party or because I can't get the words out, out of embarrassment. I HATE to look vulnerable. I like it when people see me as the fun-loving entertainer without a care in the world. It makes me feel confident and powerful.

    The second thing really hits close to home. I did the SAME THING with all of my boyfriends and my current one (an ISFJ, if that even matters) called me out on it and asked why I was acting that way. I really didn't know and asked this really good psychologist I had just started seeing and she said people act like that (unhealthy behavior) in relationships because of things that happened in their childhood. Which sounds like a copout but I have a point. So now you look back on bad childhood memories and you have the logic to figure out that mom going to work in the morning didn't mean she was never coming back (this is just a crappy example but you get the point) but when you are a child, you feel real feelings of abandonment and those feelings are associated with that memory and stay in your subconscious. So there are things that happen when you are an adult that trigger those emotions to come back out of your subconscious and you can't explain it. You try like crazy to figure it out but you're really just grasping at straws (that's why I think that ESFP keeps blaming her. He is really just trying to figure it out himself.) So anyway, what has been working for me is going to a psychologist to try to manage those crazy emotions so I can have a healthy relationship. Also, my ISFJ boyfriend said to me, "you have to trust me." and for some reason something clicked when he said that. I'm really not sure what happened but maybe it's that I thought I could protect myself and prevent getting hurt if I just never trusted anyone and then I realized that it was really preventing me from having a good relationship. So since then I've really let go and things have been amazing but this ESFP might not be ready to do that yet.
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