[ISFP] Friend need some help in understanding ISFP actions!

[pecan111]

Guys,

I am quite frankly biased in favor of not being close emotionally to ISFP's as I have stated before, but I have a friend who has a 19 yr. old son, who is profoundly upset at him right now.

Can you possibly assist in understanding what is happening?

The scenario is this...son has lived with him for past 10 years, since parents divorced. He did the best he could with him and treated him very well and took care of him physically very well. (From my viewpoint, the only thing I think he did, that was not in his son's best interest, is that he did too much for him and is now paying dearly for it.)

About 1 year ago the son started changing on him and didn't seem to be too interested in school or anything else. He has always been a loner, no real friends and generally likes weightlifting, boxing and animals, as would be expected. He does not do well at school. Son has never been a tidy person but he just threw things like banana peels and food on the floor and wouldn't even pick them up. He wanted to keep his pets, but wouldn't clean up after them and just allowed his birds to fly all over the house, along with the assoc. mess they caused. He would then lie to his father about doing this. He also had some strange habit of covering the house's motion detector alarms with tissue paper, saying that there was some kind of radiation emanating from them. (don't even ask me about that notion...just too strange to me). He also would unplug the garage door opener all the time. (No clue what he was tryign to "say" by doing this)

Anyway, it came to a head recently and finally sent his son packing to his mom's house about an hour away. Dad is very distraught. He has tried talking to his son and all he gets is a "yeah" or "no"...very familiar patterns to what I have had to deal with at times from certain others. I mentioned MBTI and told him that his son was almost certainly an ISFP. I further explained the tendencies of this type. It helped him somewhat but now he is so frustrated about what his son is doing and his disrespectful attitude and unwillingness to say anythign about his behavior, that we are both in a quandry.

I don't wish to say anything else to dad, bec. I know I have a bias about this type due to my own history with them. With that being said, can you guys begin to speculate on what is going on? i gotta tell you, I feel for the dad in the situation. He is a good man and doesn't deserve what is happening, but I have no clue as to why this seems to happen so much. He needs some meaningful communication with his son, but I don't think he will get it.

If any of you would like to put your 2 cents in here, please do so.

P. S. I didn't put too much in here, but his son has really acted very strangely compared to what he used to do. Dad is fed up and is either emotional or angry(man, can I identify with that). I have an additional personal question for you ISFP. IF someone who cares about you asks a simple question and asks for some feedback, why or what holds you back from saying it? I know you can bec. I have seen it done, but when you have to BEG for an answer and you still won't reply, the pain just intensifies for some of us.

 

[Just another ISTJ]

I think this is probably more of a mental illness issue than anything to do with type, given their behavior. Especially if he continues to act in such a manner at his mother's home.

 

[wolfy]

Could be more drug related than type related.

 

[Quinlan]

I agree with the others, don't think this is type related.

IF someone who cares about you asks a simple question and asks for some feedback, why or what holds you back from saying it? I know you can bec. I have seen it done, but when you have to BEG for an answer and you still won't reply, the pain just intensifies for some of us.

Sometimes the more you push, the less you'll get, like a hermit crab...

 

[pecan111]

WEll...

dad made an appt. for his son at therapist and requested that he be drug tested, however now that he is at mom's house, she doesn't seem to care and won't take him to doctor.

Dad wants to stay out of it and I have a tendency to agree, given the circumstances, however if it is drugs, then he is taking a long road to nowhere. Just very hard to see dad go thru this but now that he is not living with him. Its lonely for him. I have faith that he will adjust in time, but I do hate to see the possibility of his son going down this road. I will convey these comments to him. Thanks.

Did any of you feel a need to be self-medicated? I know its a personal question, but I have expereienced this with other SP's...at times, they seem to be more of the ADD and ADHD(NOT ENTIRELY>>Please know that I do not think all SP's are this way). If it makes any sense, I tend to feel they are the sensation seekers and need a lot of stimulation at times in order to feel alive.

Could any of you identify?

 

[pecan111]

Sometimes the more you push, the less you'll get, like a hermit crab...

Ok, if we don't ask we never get any idea of where you are. So what do you consider reasonable with respect to communicating? I wont' live in a vacuum ever again so I know I can't take that road anymore, but I would like a reply as to what you guys expect us to do when you never communicate.


I should say that although any number of ISFP's do communicate, some say almost nil. I also believe that although some ISFP's think they are communicating, its not verbal...and we have no clue as to the "translation' of what you are trying to say..so what should we do...?

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

Bah! MBTI won't help you.

It sounds like the kid never grew up with consequences for his actions. The dad was probably confused about how to parent and compensated by giving his son (as you said) everything he wanted. Now the kid has adjusted to that lifestyle as a baseline/default. He does whatever the fuck he wants. It's gotten worse, so the dad stepped in, but the son isn't going to budge because -- well shit, he's come to learn that his dad will roll over and acquiesce to his demands and behavior, and has come to feel justified in his behavior. The son might also be missing a good, strong male role model in his life, seeing as how dad is not firm and not clear about what acceptable behavior looks like.

If the kid gets the same leeway at mom's house, then he's not going to want to leave.

If the kid gets harsher but reasonable treatment and boundaries, he's probably going to ask to come back home. In that case, Dad should tell the son that he's thought about things a lot and has realized that he's made some mistakes. He should explain that he has been too relaxed and that this will create difficult behavioral patterns and attitudes for the kid later. Dad should set out, clearly, exactly what's expected and that type of consequences that will follow if expectations aren't met. Son might be given an opportunity to work with Dad to come up with a REASONABLE plan. (Dad should not just become a tyrant. Son should feel like Dad is being reasonable and smart.) If Dad feels like Son is starting to exploit his generosity, Dad needs to take a step back and become more firm until Son backs down. It's really important that Dad stays on top of his plan and doesn't fall short or get lazy with discipline.

In addition, Dad has to get comfortable with the idea that setting boundaries and creating disappointments in Son (when Son doesn't get his way) is not a sign that he is a failed father, even if Son says something along those lines. A mature parents can tolerate that stuff in small doses because that's just what kids do. He needs to keep his eye on the final goal and execute his plan efficiently and without excessive hesitation. He should also make sure he's got some extra-household activities/interaction with his son, like going to an arcade, playing sport, or weightlifting, if that's what Son is into. They should start forming some patterns of interaction outside of the Parent/Child dynamic.

Good luck.

 

[pecan111]

Hmmmm

Bah! MBTI won't help you.

It sounds like the kid never grew up with consequences for his actions. The dad was probably confused about how to parent and compensated by giving his son (as you said) everything he wanted. Now the kid has adjusted to that lifestyle as a baseline/default. He does whatever the fuck he wants. It's gotten worse, so the dad stepped in, but the son isn't going to budge because -- well shit, he's come to learn that his dad will roll over and acquiesce to his demands and behavior, and has come to feel justified in his behavior. The son might also be missing a good, strong male role model in his life, seeing as how dad is not firm and not clear about what acceptable behavior looks like.

Since I know dad pretty well, I agree with some of what you said. Some of the same things came out of my mouth, albeit a little kinder in tone.

anway, i tend to think much of the same thing and now dad has to learn to put his foot down and KEEP it down. RIght now dad feels the loss but he does realize that son could not stay or they were going to war. He knows that he can't have him back now or it will all be for naught.

I have watched the interactions bet. dad and son and for the most part seem normal albeit minimal verbally, but i have seen and heard dad get very stern in voice with son because he can't stand the repetitive disrespectful things he does. I have considered the son actions, at times, just plain weird. He just ignores for the most part...I stay the hell out of it completely!!!

I have seen this very same behavior out of another person with a very similar background, but with a mom who did everything for kids, including ironing, cleaning, making his bed, etc. all the way until he left house at around 20 to get married. I dont think that guy EVER grew up expecting to clean his own shit up so he expects everyone else to do it. Sad, sad, sad...

I will convey this as well...all opinions are up for consideration...I am fresh out of ideas and for an entp that is saying something!!

 

[Dali]

Wow, that sure sounds like a rather unhealthy ISxP. I'd go with Edahn and Quinlan on this. Seems like an improper parenting issue.

 

[Hirsch63]

Ok, if we don't ask we never get any idea of where you are. So what do you consider reasonable with respect to communicating? I wont' live in a vacuum ever again so I know I can't take that road anymore, but I would like a reply as to what you guys expect us to do when you never communicate.


I should say that although any number of ISFP's do communicate, some say almost nil. I also believe that although some ISFP's think they are communicating, its not verbal...and we have no clue as to the "translation' of what you are trying to say..so what should we do...?

There are any number of ways to "ask" a question. I wonder if we recorded ourselves while we asked our partners and friends questions, would we like what we heard? Do we undestand how the manner of our questioning sounds? A reasonable question is one that does not box a person in or put them on the defensive; a reasnable question requires forethought in the asking.

I tend to test out ISfp, that is the "fp" is very near to flipping "sj" in certain situations. I assume the same for others of any type. To stuff all ISFP into one bag because of an experience that you had with a person that you claim was an ISFP demonstrates an unwillingness to delve very deep into the practical applications of type...which requires some objective, honest reflection... as any thoughtful consideration of relationship dynamics does.

I'd like Quinlan and Wolfy to comment on this. When I am asked an "important" question; one that I consider personally important, I may not give a quick answer. I'm inclined to reflect and weigh carefully my past experience and the situation at hand, in order to provide an answer that comes as close as it can to being useful. I don't enjoy conflict; I find that it is largely a waste of time (and energy)in the end. Usually whatever resolution a conflict leads to, afterwards it is usually clear that the very same result could have been arived at with much less fuss, if only each participant would have been considerate (in every sense of the word).

When I am in a close relationship with someone and I seem unresponsive it is probably because I sense that there is not an answer that I can provide that will not lead to some conflict internal or external. I would want to fix this; if I cannot I would feel practically impotent, and at that point my viable options (from my perspective) become very narrow. We all communicate on a variety of levels some deliberate and others unconcious. If I seem to "clam up" it is usually because I feel under attack or simply overwhelmed by the amount of sensory input that I am being required to process. I am listening; I am trying to take all the input and carefully sort it into a comprehensible arrangement. I have learned that there is a price to pay for every "transaction" I have with another and often I am wieghing that cost wether it falls to me or the other. My goal is to reach the fairest, best "deal" for both of us. Many people are impatient with this approach. I used to view this as a fault on their part; a lack of patience and understanding in a hurry to get things done without regard to the quality of the result. Now I try to view it more as just another approach to a problem. An aproach that gets things done, true. Sometimes getting things "done" is more important than the "how" of it. At least with places and things; people not so much.

I believe that one indication of my ISfp preferences is my interest in the quality of results...somthing that I have sensed a lot of other folks don't seem to consider thoughtfully. As I walk through life I am enjoying the feel of things; their shape, placement and weight...I consider how they arrived at that state and where they might be going. If I am using them as food or material for building I feel responsible to make the most of their potential.If I am unable to fulfill this desire, I feel a sense of failure. I carry this attitude into relationships sometimes as well.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

Just one more thing, I would really hesitate about saying the kid has a mental illness, putting him on medication, or sending him to a psychologist (at this point). Not only do I see no evidence of mental illness, but I think these things can be cured with solid, wise parenting.

 

[alicia91]

I think there has been many good points made and it's probably a combination of factors. However this is a big red flag:

About 1 year ago the son started changing on him and didn't seem to be too interested in school or anything else.

This leads me to believe that something outside of the parenting skills of the father is going on (doubt he changed those). So what happened in his life about a year ago - some major trauma, started doing drugs, became depressed? Lack of interest in school, being very sloppy, etc. point to a mood issue. It would be interesting to know if this behavior continues at the mother's house.

 

[Quinlan]

There are any number of ways to "ask" a question. I wonder if we recorded ourselves while we asked our partners and friends questions, would we like what we heard? Do we undestand how the manner of our questioning sounds? A reasonable question is one that does not box a person in or put them on the defensive; a reasnable question requires forethought in the asking.

I tend to test out ISfp, that is the "fp" is very near to flipping "sj" in certain situations. I assume the same for others of any type. To stuff all ISFP into one bag because of an experience that you had with a person that you claim was an ISFP demonstrates an unwillingness to delve very deep into the practical applications of type...which requires some objective, honest reflection... as any thoughtful consideration of relationship dynamics does.

I'd like Quinlan and Wolfy to comment on this. When I am asked an "important" question; one that I consider personally important, I may not give a quick answer. I'm inclined to reflect and weigh carefully my past experience and the situation at hand, in order to provide an answer that comes as close as it can to being useful. I don't enjoy conflict; I find that it is largely a waste of time (and energy)in the end. Usually whatever resolution a conflict leads to, afterwards it is usually clear that the very same result could have been arived at with much less fuss, if only each participant would have been considerate (in every sense of the word).

When I am in a close relationship with someone and I seem unresponsive it is probably because I sense that there is not an answer that I can provide that will not lead to some conflict internal or external. I would want to fix this; if I cannot I would feel practically impotent, and at that point my viable options (from my perspective) become very narrow. We all communicate on a variety of levels some deliberate and others unconcious. If I seem to "clam up" it is usually because I feel under attack or simply overwhelmed by the amount of sensory input that I am being required to process. I am listening; I am trying to take all the input and carefully sort it into a comprehensible arrangement. I have learned that there is a price to pay for every "transaction" I have with another and often I am wieghing that cost wether it falls to me or the other. My goal is to reach the fairest, best "deal" for both of us. Many people are impatient with this approach. I used to view this as a fault on their part; a lack of patience and understanding in a hurry to get things done without regard to the quality of the result. Now I try to view it more as just another approach to a problem. An aproach that gets things done, true. Sometimes getting things "done" is more important than the "how" of it. At least with places and things; people not so much.

I believe that one indication of my ISfp preferences is my interest in the quality of results...somthing that I have sensed a lot of other folks don't seem to consider thoughtfully. As I walk through life I am enjoying the feel of things; their shape, placement and weight...I consider how they arrived at that state and where they might be going. If I am using them as food or material for building I feel responsible to make the most of their potential.If I am unable to fulfill this desire, I feel a sense of failure. I carry this attitude into relationships sometimes as well.

Very well said Hirsch, I relate to a lot of what you've said. I have talked to Pecan previously about asking something that an ISFP sees as personal, and trying to get an immediate answer, it will probably be garbled and insincere. I need time to think about and process how I really feel about things. Like you said, unless it helps move towards a practical solution, is there really any point in saying anything at all? You put it in words much better than I could.

 

[pecan111]

Very well said Hirsch, I relate to a lot of what you've said. I have talked to Pecan previously about asking something that an ISFP sees as personal, and trying to get an immediate answer, it will probably be garbled and insincere. I need time to think about and process how I really feel about things. Like you said, unless it helps move towards a practical solution, is there really any point in saying anything at all? You put it in words much better than I could.

you guys seem to be assuming i am mean or pushy when asking...i am not, but i have gotten there due to no response...i still have issues and likely always will with ANYONE who can not simply state what is going on within a reasonable time fran=me...(within 3-5 days) that is plenty of time...there is such a thing as compromise and if you guys had to put up with what i did, even you would see what i mean...this guy didn't initiate or utter a word about his feelings for 10.5 YEARS, Yes, i said YEARS....that is totally out of the realm of reasonable...this guy had major problems that were not only of ISFpp nature...too long to explain but i have a good idea what happened in his early life that exacerbated his tendency to lie and withhold from everyone...and i mean everyone..

 

[Quinlan]

That is very extreme behaviour, I'm not sure we can help speak for them.

 

[wolfy]

I'd like Quinlan and Wolfy to comment on this. When I am asked an "important" question; one that I consider personally important, I may not give a quick answer. I'm inclined to reflect and weigh carefully my past experience and the situation at hand, in order to provide an answer that comes as close as it can to being useful. I don't enjoy conflict; I find that it is largely a waste of time (and energy)in the end. Usually whatever resolution a conflict leads to, afterwards it is usually clear that the very same result could have been arived at with much less fuss, if only each participant would have been considerate (in every sense of the word).

If it is one that I consider personally important then I will not give a quick answer. I'd probably reflect look at past experiences, consider the people involved and try and see how events might occur. How the thing could play out.

People can be impatient with that way of thinking. I think now reflecting on it just at this moment a lot of that is due to my tendency to get caught thinking through the variables and not communicate that I need time. From the outside it looks like I'm brushing off what was asked but that was almost never the case.

EDIT I posted this as a direct response to Hirschs question.