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  1. #21

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    Does slowing down speed you up?

  2. #22
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    You're not including free will.
    How would that make a difference?



  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    How would that make a difference?
    It would cause a break in causality.

  4. #24
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    It would cause a break in causality.
    You'll have to explain what you mean by that, because that statement is vague and ambiguous. Are you implying causality is destroyed by free will? Are you saying free will somehow makes what humans do mean something more than what a beaver or spider does? And for that matter, how does causality and if it is "broken" have anything to do determining if we are living "naturally?"



  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    You'll have to explain what you mean by that, because that statement is vague and ambiguous. Are you implying causality is destroyed by free will? Are you saying free will somehow makes what humans do mean something more than what a beaver or spider does? And for that matter, how does causality and if it is "broken" have anything to do determining if we are living "naturally?"
    I'm saying if we are self aware and have free will then we have a choice over our actions. It's not about being above other animals. Other animals are also self aware.
    If we can choose our actions then wouldn't it follow that we can choose incorrectly?

    In your examples the system is self adapting, natural. The flower doesn't spew fumes for any reason does it?
    If humans can reason and choose then that separates us from nature.
    I'm not saying this is a bad thing I'm just feel that is how it is.

    So you think that every event, including cognition and behaviour, is exactly the way it should be?
    That everything we do is what we should do?

    That is what I was trying to say in the initial post.

  6. #26
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    I'm saying if we are self aware and have free will then we have a choice over our actions. It's not about being above other animals. Other animals are also self aware.
    If we can choose our actions then wouldn't it follow that we can choose incorrectly?
    Well sure, but choosing incorrectly means what exactly? If the mechanism for making choices [free will] is afforded to us by nature, anything done by that mechanism is the result of a natural process. People think "natural" means good. It doesn't, not in the sense that we use it. Wolves eat the children and newborn of herds, simply because they are easier to catch. There are male frog species that force themselves on the females if the female rejects their mating proposal. This is natural. Is it right? Is it correct? That's another argument, it is not intertwined.



    In your examples the system is self adapting, natural. The flower doesn't spew fumes for any reason does it?
    If humans can reason and choose then that separates us from nature.
    I'm not saying this is a bad thing I'm just feel that is how it is.
    The flower spews fumes because it evolved to do so. We also spew fumes as we put the environment's resources to work for us, just like any other species, as we have evolved to do so. Somehow our environmental use is wrong because we have free will, something that is given to us by nature? Doesn't really make sense to me. Even if it is wrong, it's still natural.

    Reason and choice [I]does not[I] separate us from nature. It was given to us by nature. Therefore everything we do is a part of it, part of the natural equation. We are not above it, not separate from it, but just another variable.

    So you think that every event, including cognition and behaviour, is exactly the way it should be?
    That everything we do is what we should do?

    That is what I was trying to say in the initial post.
    Everything we do is natural, not necessarily right or wrong. We have grown to what we are, using the same rules every other organism has used to get where we are. We're just better at it than all the others.



  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    People think "natural" means good. It doesn't, not in the sense that we use it.
    It can when used in the philosophical sense of the word. That is where or difference of opinion stems from.

    I agree with you from a scientific standpoint but feel you are wrong in saying that the word 'nature' cannot be used in that way.

  8. #28
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    It can when used in the philosophical sense of the word. That is where or difference of opinion stems from.

    I agree with you from a scientific standpoint but feel you are wrong in saying that the word 'nature' cannot be used in that way.
    If it is, then it doesn't correspond to nature anymore, since the entire natural world could be considered unnatural.



  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    If it is, then it doesn't correspond to nature anymore, since the entire natural world could be considered unnatural.
    Only in the scientific meaning of the word nature. You can't mix them.

  10. #30
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    Only in the scientific meaning of the word nature. You can't mix the concepts.
    So the philosophical meaning of "nature" means good? Anything that acts as is natural is good? Then we're back to humans, regardless of behavior, being good no matter what because we are acting naturally.



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