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[Fe] Extraverted feeling - I don't get it.

Lady_X

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
18,235
MBTI Type
ENFP
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784
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sx/sp
from the forum:

"Fe is the lava that boils out.
Fi is the fire inside that started it all.

Fe sings.
Fi composes.

Fe asserts itself.
Fi just IS.

Fe is the bird.
Fi is the song.

Fe is contagious.
Fi is seductive.

Fe feels for others.
Fi feels for self.

Fe resounds.
Fi resonates.

Fe is the smile that leads to the kiss.
Fi is the butterfly in your chest that led to the smile.

Fe makes decisions based on values.
Fi makes decisions based on PERSONAL values.

Fe reaches out.
Fi pulls in."

this is all kinds of lovely. :wubbie:
 

Poki

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Dec 4, 2008
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sx/so
phoenity, i dont know if you are istp (an introverted sensorical perceiver=Si) or TiSe but for the moment i will asume that you are an introverted sensorical perceiver:

istp value loyality dont they?
loyality as in getting your hands dirty for your friends.
such loyality is all about Fe.

(introverted sensorical peceiver (thinking) = SiTeNiFe)

you got got into an argument with an enfp about how much you care for people (quote "Lies!"), its a typical misunderstanding. like intp you either defend your weak Fe or hide it (to pretend invulnerability). but in any case, the Fe-caring is something different from what an enfp thinks of when he refers to his own Fi. (sympathy vs empathy)

such loyality is not to be confused with staying true to an aid that one has sworn (which would be an Fi or Ti interpretation of the word). like "just because this company became corrupt and morally bankrupt, doesnt mean i cant continue to work for this company in an upright honest and moral way, i have sworn to the ideals of the company, after all"

thats not to say, that xiTe people dont value a steadyness in their course of action (as sworn once), but its more a strategical value and as it can seem very twisted to others, as it is situational. like when you claim "if this company doest stop its corrupt ways, i will retire in protest" and you will feel like you have to actually do this, even if it kills you.

i collect my notes in my blog

It seems like MBTI is more based on apparent behaviour which changes. Socionics tends to be more based on who you are. I fit ISTP in both. I MBTI Fe is about doing things for other people before doing things for yourself. When other people are good to go, you can think about yourself. This is why an ENFJ will crash if they dont get thier Fe under control. This is also how an ISTP will crash as they get to know more people. We will hold those we know and care about on a pedestal and put them before our own needs. Prioritizing based on those we love the most. We end up being limited by our time as to who we can help. When those we care about the most are good, we turn to help someone else, letting the person we love the most be on there own until they need us.
 

phoenity

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Feb 27, 2008
Messages
472
phoenity, i dont know if you are istp (an introverted sensorical perceiver=Si) or TiSe but for the moment i will asume that you are an introverted sensorical perceiver:

istp value loyality dont they?
loyality as in getting your hands dirty for your friends.
(dirty means, that you may break your personal values, in favor of relational values)
such loyality is all about Fe.

(introverted sensorical peceiver (thinking) = SiTeNiFe)

you got got into an argument with an enfp about how much you care for people (quote "Lies!"), its a typical misunderstanding. like intp you either defend your weak Fe or hide it (to pretend invulnerability). but in any case, the Fe-caring is something different from what an enfp thinks of when he refers to his own Fi. (sympathy vs empathy)

such loyality is not to be confused with staying true to an aid that one has sworn (which would be an Fi or Ti interpretation of the word). like "just because this company became corrupt and morally bankrupt, doesnt mean i cant continue to work for this company in an upright honest and moral way, i have sworn to the ideals of the company, after all"

thats not to say, that xiTe and xiFe people dont value a steadyness in their course of action (as sworn once), but its more a strategical value (at least in introverted people) as it can seem very twisted to others, as it is situational. like when you claim "if this company doest stop its corrupt ways, i will retire in protest" and you will feel like you have to actually do this, even if it kills you.

i collect my notes in my blog

I have a more clear understanding of it now that I have heard so many perspectives and really looked into it.

As for my "argument" with CaptainChick, it was just playful. :) I know I can be that way with ENFPs. I was simply letting her know she misunderstood, and that while her bf may have seemed like a heartless bastard, I am not. I never took anything personally because that's just not something I do.

Thank you Nanook - I like your description of Fe. I am very loyal to my friends and I will do anything for them (given it's not against my values), without needing anything in return.

As for Si vs Se, I read the descriptions and I'm pretty sure I do both, but with a preference toward Se.

defend your weak Fe or hide it (to pretend invulnerability)

I'm guilty of that as well, when I understood much less about myself. I've since realized it's a flaw of mine so it's something I try to work on simply by being more aware of it and using it.

I used to pretend invulnerability, but I feel genuinely happier when I acknowledge my weaknesses.
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
1,361
poki said:
I fit ISTP in both. I MBTI Fe is about doing things for other people before doing things for yourself. When other people are good to go, you can think about yourself. This is why an ENFJ will crash if they dont get thier Fe under control. This is also how an ISTP will crash as they get to know more people. We will hold those we know and care about on a pedestal and put them before our own needs. Prioritizing based on those we love the most. We end up being limited by our time as to who we can help. When those we care about the most are good, we turn to help someone else, letting the person we love the most be on there own until they need us.

totally agree, this is Fe.

exept this is what all ixxp do (albeit they are less proactive, but feel bad about it) and statistically introverted perceivers (Si or Ni people) seem to test as ixxp and ixxp in both mbti and socioncs, while introverted judgers (Fi or Ti) test in much more mixed ways.


mbti people will claim that the above were true for isfj and infj, because, as stated elsewhere (insert link), Fi values concrete action for others as proof of ones goodness, whereas introverted peceiver (Si or NI) have a conflicting view on peoples qualities.

so obviously Fi people will often waste themselves for their own values ("i need to be a good serving person, even if no one is asking for it and even if no one thinks that my serving is actually serving or if no one sees it = isfj/infj = Fi")
 

Poki

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totally agree, this is Fe.

exept this is what all ixxp do (albeit they are less proactive, but feel bad about it) and statistically introverted perceivers (Si or Ni people) seem to test as ixxp and ixxp in both mbti and socioncs, while introverted judgers (Fi or Ti) test in much more mixed ways.


mbti people will claim that the above were true for isfj and infj, because, as stated elsewhere (insert link), Fi values concrete action for others as proof of ones goodness, whereas introverted peceiver (Si or NI) have a conflicting view on peoples qualities.

so obviously Fi people will often waste themselves for their own values ("i need to be a good serving person, even if no one is asking for it and even if no one thinks that my serving is actually serving or if no one sees it = isfj/infj = Fi")


I guess what stumps me is that I dont really understand having so many personality types to define a persons behavior. I have a need to figure out the difference and bring the 2 together. It really stumped me because I am ISTP on both. I would have questioned it, but I believe I have a good enough understanding of each function to know who I am. Its crazy that the more I understand the basics of people and type I can actually figure out how to relate so much more to everyone. Its like I finally have enough of an understanding to be alot more comfortable around people. I have become so much more talkative IRL and its causing my Fe to really come out.

I see that in Fi and actually envy it.
 

phoenity

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Feb 27, 2008
Messages
472
I guess what stumps me is that I dont really understand having so many personality types to define a persons behavior. I have a need to figure out the difference and bring the 2 together. It really stumped me because I am ISTP on both. I would have questioned it, but I believe I have a good enough understanding of each function to know who I am. Its crazy that the more I understand the basics of people and type I can actually figure out how to relate so much more to everyone. Its like I finally have enough of an understanding to be alot more comfortable around people. I have become so much more talkative IRL and its causing my Fe to really come out.

I see that in Fi and actually envy it.

Nanook loses me as well - it must be the N :D

I originally came here because I was trying to understand and learn about myself. As I do that and understand my own personality, it helps me recognize differences in other personalities and adapt to how I can best interact with them.

Understanding myself is the key that opens that door. Being comfortable in knowing who I am makes me more secure in dealing with others.
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
1,361
generally true for everyone:

if you look for validation of who you are, you will find it. i could tell you, that your first function is being stoned, and you would imagine a stone and see your own qualities in that stone and agree with me and even thank me for pointing that out.

its just a pity if you are actually a turtle.

being a turtle and having a shell like a stone, you can actually do stone things (lying around, falling down), but may not discover what you really are good for.
also, a true stone may smash you, if you mess with him.

so, identifying with abstract things like "functions", can be a dangerous thing
 

Poki

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generally true for everyone:

if you look for validation of who you are, you will find it. i could tell you, that your first function is being stoned, and you would imagine a stone and see your own qualities in that stone and agree with me and even thank me for pointing that out.

its just a pity if you are actually a turtle.

being a turtle and having a shell like a stone, you can actually do stone things (lying around, falling down), but may not discover what you really are good for.
also, a true stone may smash you, if you mess with him.

so, identifying with abstract things like "functions", can be a dangerous thing

Thats the benefit of being ISTP. I try to always validate against the bigger picture and never lose sight of it. In finding who I am I found parts of me that relates to alot of people.

The way an ISTP thinks is by finding the root definition, so its like our own internal abstract. Thats why I cant understand how we can have BOTH socionics and MBTI. We really do look for the simplest meaning that cannot encompass more than one thing. thats why alot of the "definitions" confuse me, because it tells what it does, but a function cannot do anything on its own. Its like a math problem really where you have so many equations and you have to derive what each variable or function means on its own. To me its reverse engineering.

edit: I really like your analogies and insight
 

phoenity

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Thats the benefit of being ISTP. I try to always validate against the bigger picture and never lose sight of it. In finding who I am I found parts of me that relates to alot of people.

The way an ISTP thinks is by finding the root definition, so its like our own internal abstract. Thats why I cant understand how we can have BOTH socionics and MBTI. We really do look for the simplest meaning that cannot encompass more than one thing. thats why alot of the "definitions" confuse me, because it tells what it does, but a function cannot do anything on its own. Its like a math problem really where you have so many equations and you have to derive what each variable or function means on its own. To me its reverse engineering.

edit: I really like your analogies and insight

Exactly, Poki.

I guess I didn't word that right. I'm not looking for anyone to tell me who I am. I'm looking for the why I am, and how that's different than other people. Using MBTI helps me look at things from a different perspective and work backwards.

As for the analogies - they were lost on me lol. You seem to be talking about identifying with functions, but I'm actually talking about comprehending myself using functions.
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
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Jul 22, 2007
Messages
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well, there is only one truth, and its not like mbti and socioncis point at different aspects of the same truth, as if they segment it differently. the simply claim to point a "different truth" (as in: one of them must be wrong). so both will say that you are istp but one of them will say that your first function equals the second function of an estp (Ti), the other one will say that your first function equals the second function of an estj (Si). one of them must be wrong! many people don't believe that, though. they want to entertain a pluralistic mindset. say, the definitions are just different. they have not thought it through. someone might argue, that the systems (types of one system) are supposed to point to different people. after all there are actually people, whose first function equals Si or Ti. but if you explore the claims that are made about third and fourth functions you will see, that this is not a possible way out of the dilemma. the systems are totally a-symmetrical.

but ultimately both systems could be frigging wrong.
 

Poki

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Exactly, Poki.

I guess I didn't word that right. I'm not looking for anyone to tell me who I am. I'm looking for the why I am, and how that's different than other people. Using MBTI helps me look at things from a different perspective and work backwards.

As for the analogies - they were lost on me lol. You seem to be talking about identifying with functions, but I'm actually talking about comprehending myself using functions.

What nanook is referring to is what I was talking about in being able to see a little bit of yourself in alot of different people. If we focus on one thing we may actually believe we are that way. Its the reason people mis-identify themselves. Talking about how I feel I can relate alot with ENFPs and how they feel. Since I am shy i may believe I am an INFP. This would throw my comprehension of functions way off.

edit: this happens in relationships, where one can relate to anothers problems even though the drive behind it is different, the feeling is the same.

well, there is only one truth, and its not like mbti and socioncis point at different aspects of the same truth, as if they segment it differently. the simply claim to point a "different truth" (as in: one of them must be wrong). so both will say that you are istp but one of them will say that your first function equals the second function of an estp (Ti), the other one will say that your first function equals the second function of an estj (Si). one of them must be wrong! many people don't believe that, though. they want to entertain a pluralistic mindset. say, the definitions are just different. the have not thought it through. someone might argue, that the systems are supposed to point to different people. after all there are people, whose first function equals Si or Ti. but if you explore the claims that are made about tertiary functions you will see, that this is not a possible way out of the dilemma.

but ultimately bot systems could be frigging wrong.

I see them as having a different focus:D We just gotta figure out the differences and learn how to merge them. It gets deeper than function difference and behaviour difference, but being ISTP in both systems it is harder for me to recognize the differences from a personal level and need to really understand another type that is different so I can recognize the differences and really figure it out.
 

nanook

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poki said:
being ISTP in both systems it is harder for me to recognize the differences from a personal level and need to really understand another type that is different so I can recognize the differences and really figure it out.


yes, you should learn to understand Te/Ti by observing extroverted sensing types. (this advice is for istx only)

once you are confident, that your thinking style is either Ti or Te, you can observe whether your thinking style is present in either esFj or esFp.

this way you can validate/falsify one of the systems.

if your T matches estj, then it is Te.
if you observe, that an esfj is using your Te*, you know that the mbti is wrong. if you see esfp using your Te then socionics is wrong.

this was easier for me, because feeling styles and intuition styles are so much more obvious, at least to my eyes-
so i can tell the difference between Fi and Fe, and i see both enfp and entp using Fi, so i know socioniocs is right, because mbti tells that entp uses Fe, which he is not. also i can tell what Ti is, because both entp and enfp to the same thinking, which is very analogue to Fi anyway. so i can tell, that i do not use Ti but Te (NiFeSiTe). allot of Ni feeling people have a Te phobia, and would rather assume that they make use of Ti. i used to have that phobia myself, and therefore liked the mbti much better for a long time. this phobia may be based on observation of entj. more than that its a Freudian thing. it represents the struggle with one's rational stage of development. falling in love with ken wilbers thinking helped me to set my suppressed Te free, to not deny it any longer. it can coexist with Fe peacefully. i still suck at Ne and Se.


edit: *important grammar fix
 

nanook

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phoenity said:
You seem to be talking about identifying with functions, but I'm actually talking about comprehending myself using functions.

same thing. you identify with the pattern, that you see in yourself, while you are comprehending (applying a pattern). this may make you blind to discover, how other (more refined or just different) patterns could and should be applied to the same you.

for instance: if you are moody, an analyst will tell you that you are moody because your mother did not love you. an behaviorist will tell you that you are moody because you lack food. you know for a fact that you are moody, you lack food, and you lack a loving mother. you can feel like you suddenly totally comprehend yourself, or that you are now confused on a much higher level. the truth can not be found inside of you. patterns or comprehenstion is interpretation, and interpretation is a skill (guesswork) that needs to be fed on a lot of experience (which includes a lot of comparison). you have to observe other people, to see when they are moody. this may or may not tell you, if said interpretations about you moodiness' cause are likely true, or which one is more likely to be true. if both could be true, the attempt to understand you remains a frustrating confusion.

i liked my turtles metaphor better :)
 

phoenity

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Ah-ha. I see what you mean now. It just wasn't apparent to me until you pointed it out that I went about it that way.

I have learned more about personality types by observing the functions in other people, than in myself. Observing these in other people has helped me come to a greater understanding of my own functions.

Basically, when I first tested and "determined" myself to be ISTP, it didn't really mean much to me. It wasn't until I could start observing and recognizing the functions of people I knew that it I saw a practical use.
 

Winds of Thor

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Google has not really helped. Could someone who speaks my language please explain?

I was reading up on this and read that your Fe is inferior and least feeling function...but when activated, it's visible. Also it's usually noticed in an all-or-nothing manner, as it operates unconsciously. So when it's activated it's sensitive...meaning it will either benefit you greatly or be perilous. A suggestion is to supervise it and protect it from predators and other problems.:)
 

phoenity

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phoenity, i dont know if you are istp (an introverted sensorical perceiver=Si) or TiSe but for the moment i will asume that you are an introverted sensorical perceiver:

istp value loyality dont they?
loyality as in getting your hands dirty for your friends.
(dirty means, that you may break your personal values, in favor of relational values)
such loyality is all about Fe.

(introverted sensorical peceiver (thinking) = SiTeNiFe)

you got got into an argument with an enfp about how much you care for people (quote "Lies!"), its a typical misunderstanding. like intp you either defend your weak Fe or hide it (to pretend invulnerability). but in any case, the Fe-caring is something different from what an enfp thinks of when he refers to his own Fi. (sympathy vs empathy)

such loyality is not to be confused with staying true to an aid that one has sworn (which would be an Fi or Ti interpretation of the word). like "just because this company became corrupt and morally bankrupt, doesnt mean i cant continue to work for this company in an upright honest and moral way, i have sworn to the ideals of the company, after all"

thats not to say, that xiTe and xiFe people dont value a steadyness in their course of action (as sworn once), but its more a strategical value (at least in introverted people) as it can seem very twisted to others, as it is situational. like when you claim "if this company doest stop its corrupt ways, i will retire in protest" and you will feel like you have to actually do this, even if it kills you.

i collect my notes in my blog


I didn't understand what you were talking about at first, but now I see that you're using the Socionics terminology. Wow I'm even more confused now.

MBTI Se and Socionics Se don't seem like they mean the same thing, so they can't be interchanged, can they?

I identify with ISTP in MBTI and Sensing logical introvert of Socionics.

Si/Te/Ni/Fe in Socionics seems to me to mean the same as
Se/Ti/Ni/Fe in MBTI
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
1,361
MBTI Se and Socionics Se don't seem like they mean the same thing, so they can't be interchanged, can they?

they must be interchangable, because they are both applied to estp, and estp test as estp in both systems.
if they are not interchangeble, one of them must be untrue.

i dont know you, but for the isFp i know, i can tell, they dont have the same S that estp have, but they have Si
 

Costrin

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Nov 1, 2008
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Keep in mind that in Socionics J/P is defined differently than in MBTI.
 
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