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  1. #21
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    From what I understand, a value judgment is one's own perspective which is generally subjective. I think the question for ISTPs as well as INTPs is not value judgments which are generally are more inclined to be Fi dominant type users. Ti dominant types consider their principles. But then again that is where the confusion lies, since they are no different than values in my opinion. As for emotions, they don't come into play when discussing type since all functions are cognitive.
    Yeah, I agree with this, many times, it's very difficult to differentiate between a values and principles. I really can't tell, and sort of put them into one category.

  2. #22
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    This is from an actual conversation with an ENFP. I think this is along the lines.

    (Discussion about a person)
    ENFP: He is an idiot - emotional
    ISTP: I hate idiots - value
    ENFP: Hes not an idiot, he just....(explanation of what she doesnt like)


    OMG this is hysterical.
    My ISTP ex husband and I talked very littlein our ten years. The few times we had conversations they would end up like the above conversation. Once we got into a huge brawl at pizza hut becuase I said I didnt want to live in a town close by as it was the epitome of urban sprawl. Then he said "you think you are better than those poeple?" I tried to explain it wasnt the people but just the abstract concept that I didnt like.

    He called me an elitist, intellectual, arrogant pig and we didnt talk for a couple of days.

    What he didnt get I guess was the emotional undertone of my conversation and assumed that my emotional judgement was a value judgement maybe?

  3. #23
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    He called me an elitist, intellectual, arrogant pig and we didnt talk for a couple of days.
    Nice.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say that the difference between value judgement and emotion is unclear in my mind - it's just that the definitions overlap.

    However, apparently when dealing with some types (ENFP seems to be on the list) I have a potential blind spot here.

    Hard to conclude much from all this except maybe the guy who wrote the personalitypage profile was an ENFP?
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    I think a lot of types confuse our responses like that though. We are normally insanely contextual. eg. "Bob is an idiot", means at that place and time, due to that event, maybe with some reference to the amusing view of the word. Somehow other ENFPs seem to get it though.

    This sort of thing tends to be a comment, or emotional judgment, though it doesn't have a huge amount of emotion attached to it. We don't bother clarifying like with value judgments, because the comment holds no intention. It is just an observation, or an interesting point. Or a feeling in that moment. At the core, we are not indefinitely of the view he is an idiot.

    A value judgment on the other hand is very core to us, and far less light hearted. eg. "Bob is destructive to humanity as we know it, and if he continues on the path of crashing planes into deserts, someone will get killed. This behaviour is stupidity."

    The value judgment is core and definite. It calls strongly for change. And is far less flexible. We will hold the same view a year later if he is still doing the same thing. Whereas "Bob is an idiot" is just a statement, maybe a harsh one, but it stays attached to the moment, and carries far less weight.
    This is useful. Bolded the big points. I don't know if I'm really that prone to mixing those two up, but these examples are purposely exaggerated.

    Possible guideline for ISTPs to understand ENFPs better:

    When in doubt whether a comment is a value judgement or just emotion, see if there is clarification. Also hold off for a bit and see if they maintain the same opinion, if it's repeated with the same intensity than it's probably value judgement.

    BTW, my style is that I try to say what I mean and mean what I say. Unless it's sarcasm. So . . .

    Possible guideline for ENFPs to understand ISTPs better:

    We mean it*. Unless we don't.
    *Based on currently available data.


    Hooray for better mutual understandings?
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    From what I understand, a value judgment is one's own perspective which is generally subjective. I think the question for ISTPs as well as INTPs is not value judgments which are generally are more inclined to be Fi dominant type users. Ti dominant types consider their principles. But then again that is where the confusion lies, since they are no different than values in my opinion. As for emotions, they don't come into play when discussing type since all functions are cognitive.
    Good points. The definitions do overlap.

    I forgot about "feeling" not meaning emotion. Good call.

    Instead of 'thinking and feeling' and I've seen the preference dichotomy referred to as 'logic and ethics.' I think that describes it better, except when you abbreviate it, and also, you have a new problem because logical solutions can be ethical ones as well etc etc.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    OMG this is hysterical.
    My ISTP ex husband and I talked very littlein our ten years. The few times we had conversations they would end up like the above conversation. Once we got into a huge brawl at pizza hut becuase I said I didnt want to live in a town close by as it was the epitome of urban sprawl. Then he said "you think you are better than those poeple?" I tried to explain it wasnt the people but just the abstract concept that I didnt like.

    He called me an elitist, intellectual, arrogant pig and we didnt talk for a couple of days.

    What he didnt get I guess was the emotional undertone of my conversation and assumed that my emotional judgement was a value judgement maybe?
    I really dont like judging people and to me the way ENFPs say things does come across as judging someone. The funny thing is that an ISTP is the same way because of Fe-Ni. There are things we say with Fe that we realy dont hold as concrete, it just happens to come out with alot more emotion than we intended it to come out with. Being P I would not lash out with Fe, I would hold my feelings in until I get a better understanding of why. I would probably have come back with "whats wrong with urban sprawl" if it bothered me, or not say anything and just wait for it to come up again for a better understanding. Knowing me I would probably google it to figure out why people dont like urban sprawl.

    edit: Calling someone elitist, intellectual, etc doesnt sound like a healthy ISTP. That is not being blunt, that is just flat out being a prick.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    My ISTP ex husband and I talked very littlein our ten years.
    So what was the point of that marriage then?

  9. #29
    Member Brouhaha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post

    Possible guideline for ENFPs to understand ISTPs better:

    We mean it*. Unless we don't.
    Lol, yeah.
    "Raisin Bran Crunch? More like Amazin' Bran Crunch!"

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenity View Post
    So what was the point of that marriage then?
    I have never been in a relationship with an ENFP, but when an ISTP falls in love they will go above and beyond for the other person with doing things and the ENFP Ne picks it up and causes there Fi to feel loved. Now the ENFP will have a touch, a look that an ISTP can read like a book, its there Si coming out that Se picks up not sure how its tied to Fi(how we feel internally, but it is). Its a connection without words.

    Does this sound about right Happy?

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