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  1. #11
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    Also, how do you distinguish between emotions and values. For example, is there anything that can provoke a negative reaction in someone but they wouldn't make a value judgment against it? You may shed tears when you're slicing an onion, but that isn't technically an emotional reaction, is it?
    I guess you can argue that someone can make a value judgment without having an emotional reaction, although I find it hard to believe that there's no emotion present at all even under the surface, but I can't see how you can have an emotional reaction without there being an underlying subjective assessment towards the thing that provoked it.
    The example of emotion that's not value judgment that came to my mind was surprise. I can tell that when someone is surprised, they are acting in a certain way because of that emotion. They aren't really judging something's worth in the process.

    I second the first half of your second paragraph.

    But you CAN have an emotional response to something without (first) making an assessment toward the provoking stimulus.

    ***Amateur knowledge of neuroscience ahead***

    That's the job of the limbic system (paleomammalian brain). It makes you hungry, run away from predators (brain stem), want to mate, that sort of stuff.
    If you come across a lion in the jungle, you're hustling out of there. The "assessment" (from your prefrontal cortex) of "I ran away from that lion because I don't like being eaten" (value judgement) comes afterward.

    (keyword: triune theory)

    In less extreme cases, (like "I don't like pickles") I'm in agreement with the second half of your second paragraph.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Poki, I'm gonna write out what I think you're saying in narrative form. I think it'll make more sense that way. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Characters: ENFP, Poki, and Bob the 'Idiot'
    *A-hem*
    ENFP was fed up with Bob wanted to vent. "Bob is an idiot" said the ENFP, exacerbated. Poki, however, took her literally. "I didn't know she thought he was an idiot" he thought to himself. He looked up and admired the smooth contours of her body* and then said with a sly grin "Yeah, I hate idiots too." Of course, Poki did not actually harbor intense hatred toward people of low intelligence, just toward people like Bob.
    At first ENFP appeared confused. "Does Poki really think I think that Bob is an idiot?" she thought to herself. She wiped the sweat from her brow - the Saharan Sun was harsh and she was tired of riding the smelly camel**. She sighed. "I don't really think he's an idiot Poki, I just wish Bob wouldn't crash land us in the desert and sell us to Arabian goods traders all the time. It's kinda annoying." Poki figured out what she meant and things were alright. THE END

    I think that would be an example of what the personalitypage author was saying. I don't really think I do that too much but maybe I do and don't realize it.

    *well I said it was a narrative. I got bored. Gotta keep your attention somehow.
    **yeah. Ditto. REALLY bored.
    I think a lot of types confuse our responses like that though. We are normally insanely contextual. eg. "Bob is an idiot", means at that place and time, due to that event, maybe with some reference to the amusing view of the word. Somehow other ENFPs seem to get it though.

    This sort of thing tends to be a comment, or emotional judgment, though it doesn't have a huge amount of emotion attached to it. We don't bother clarifying like with value judgments, because the comment holds no intention. It is just an observation, or an interesting point. Or a feeling in that moment. At the core, we are not indefinitely of the view he is an idiot.

    A value judgment on the other hand is very core to us, and far less light hearted. eg. "Bob is destructive to humanity as we know it, and if he continues on the path of crashing planes into deserts, someone will get killed. This behaviour is stupidity."

    The value judgment is core and definite. It calls strongly for change. And is far less flexible. We will hold the same view a year later if he is still doing the same thing. Whereas "Bob is an idiot" is just a statement, maybe a harsh one, but it stays attached to the moment, and carries far less weight.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  3. #13
    Member Brouhaha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild horses View Post
    I know this is slightly off topic but kind of relevant I think... Do ISTPs often take instant dislikings to people... I have known two or three to do this... I ask what don't you like about this person and the response is... "I don't know" But the dislike is passionate to the point where they hate everything about the person and cannot stand to be around them or whatever.. Is this typical or are my typing skills off?
    I wouldn't say that I have often taken an instant disliking to people. It does happen semi-frequently, however. It is definitely hard to identify the reason, usually something small about them that I just intensely dislike which then lowers my general indifference to people I've just met. But normally, as I just said, I'm rather indifferent to people when I first meet them, even if I have a strong suspicion that I won't like them, I usually resist making a judgment.

    Of course it works the other way too, I will sometimes know I'll like someone the moment I meet them. Even if I never do talk to them or interact further, I can pass the somewhere around campus and think to myself, "gee, I bet I'd be really good friends with that person if I had bothered to hang out with them."

  4. #14

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    I tend to notice ISTPs dislike people who clip their wings. There's a need for freedom of thought and action, and if you are the spanner in the works, you become unpopular. Obviously all types get annoyed with people who affect them in this way, but unlike ENFPs who go through endless stupidity trying to fix it, ISTPs seem to be very direct and decisive about it. They don't really tolerate or entertain it. At least the one I know doesn't .
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Wild horses's Avatar
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    I wish I could be more like that... I am extremely protective of my freedom to the point where I just avoid situations if I think they will threaten it, hwoever, if I am in a situation which threatens it I am less effective at dealing!
    ... couldn't drag me away

    eljko Ranatovic: argus
    eljko Ranatovic: do you want heir's?
    WildHorses: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    eljko Ranatovic: to carry your genealogical code??

  6. #16

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    Yep, I was always jealous of them too. I'm learning slowly though.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  7. #17
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild horses View Post
    I know this is slightly off topic but kind of relevant I think... Do ISTPs often take instant dislikings to people... I have known two or three to do this... I ask what don't you like about this person and the response is... "I don't know" But the dislike is passionate to the point where they hate everything about the person and cannot stand to be around them or whatever.. Is this typical or are my typing skills off?
    For me, not often, but yeah sometimes. There are a few people whom I've instantly disliked. I think it's an attitude/mannerism thing...you can tell a lot about someone in a very short time, just by looking at the way he/she acts. Tone of voice, the way they talk to people, body language, etc.

    Whether that's accurate or not, I don't know. But I tend to keep disliking those people, to the point where it's often physically uncomfortable to see them because I feel dishonest even being polite to them (though I am). That might be either self-fulfilling prophecy or a tendency for certain negative traits/characteristics to congregate (and therefore be predictable), who knows.

    Really though, that seems like a universal trait. Surely everyone has met a few people they can't stand.

    ...

    re: the op, I don't really know what the question is asking. Emotions = what you're feeling. Judgements = what you do. Value judgments, I guess are based on your values, and generally when your values are threatened you feel emotion. So I guess there is some overlap...but I think of emotional decisions as innately irrational, where value judgements are those where you've considered the situation objectively and logically, then applied your values to it. Sorta different. You can have emotions about something without it being part of your value system.

    Guess it depends on your definition, though...
    -end of thread-

  8. #18
    Senior Member Wild horses's Avatar
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    Thats interesting thanks for the insight.. I personally find it perplexing how the dislike could be so intense and instant... but I admire you guys for just coming right out and saying it... I am always going around with my rose tinted glasses on but sometimes I can't see the wood for the trees and end up putting trust in people who don't necessarily deserve!
    ... couldn't drag me away

    eljko Ranatovic: argus
    eljko Ranatovic: do you want heir's?
    WildHorses: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    eljko Ranatovic: to carry your genealogical code??

  9. #19
    ..... Intricate Mystic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post

    She wiped the sweat from her brow - the Saharan Sun was harsh and she was tired of riding the smelly camel**. She sighed. "I don't really think he's an idiot Poki, I just wish Bob wouldn't crash land us in the desert and sell us to Arabian goods traders all the time. It's kinda annoying." Poki figured out what she meant and things were alright. THE END
    You should get bored more often.

  10. #20
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    From what I understand, a value judgment is one's own perspective which is generally subjective. I think the question for ISTPs as well as INTPs is not value judgments which are generally are more inclined to be Fi dominant type users. Ti dominant types consider their principles. But then again that is where the confusion lies, since they are no different than values in my opinion. As for emotions, they don't come into play when discussing type since all functions are cognitive.
    prin?ci?ple
    noun
    1. an accepted or professed rule of action or conduct: a person of good moral principles.
    2. a fundamental, primary, or general law or truth from which others are derived: the principles of modern physics.
    3. a fundamental doctrine or tenet; a distinctive ruling opinion: the principles of the Stoics.
    4. principles, a personal or specific basis of conduct or management: to adhere to one's principles; a kindergarten run on modern principles.
    5. guiding sense of the requirements and obligations of right conduct: a person of principle.
    6. an adopted rule or method for application in action: a working principle for general use.
    7. a rule or law exemplified in natural phenomena, the construction or operation of a machine, the working of a system, or the like: the principle of capillary attraction.
    8. the method of formation, operation, or procedure exhibited in a given case: a community organized on the patriarchal principle.
    9. a determining characteristic of something; essential quality.
    val?ue
    noun, verb, -ued, -u?ing.

    1. values, Sociology. the ideals, customs, institutions, etc., of a society toward which the people of the group have an affective regard. These values may be positive, as cleanliness, freedom, or education, or negative, as cruelty, crime, or blasphemy.
    2. Ethics. any object or quality desirable as a means or as an end in itself.
    3. Fine Arts.
    a. degree of lightness or darkness in a color.
    b. the relation of light and shade in a painting, drawing, or the like.
    4. Music. the relative length or duration of a tone signified by a note.

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