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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    To be clear, what definition of daydreaming are you using in this thread.
    Actually I had not, but based on xx00’s connotation of ”essentially thinking about things haphazardly” then it could not be Ti. Nevertheless, the definition is:
    day•dream

    n. A dreamlike musing or fantasy while awake, especially of the fulfillment of wishes or hopes.
    intr.v. day•dreamed or day•dreamt (-dr?mt'), day•dream•ing, day•dreams
    To have dreamlike musings or fantasies while awake.
    day'dream'er n.
    Based on that, Ti does not allow us to fantacize or look at life anyway than how it really is, then we analyze the facts brought before us from Ne/Se. I guess I should back up since I admit that I have been assuming we are all discussing Ti at either the dominant or auxiliary level, nothing lower. If that is the case then Ti would have nothing to do with the discussion since you are most likely using Ni/Si beforehand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Well, not quite. I'm daydreaming with Ti, with information gained from Ne, which is only tenuously connected to present circumstances. So I guess yes, and sorta no.
    I have never come across a definition that allows Ti to daydream with information gained from it’s auxiliary. Butts at Typelogic says:
    Introverted Thinking strives to extract the essence of the Idea from various externals that express it. Knowing the Truth is enough for INTPs; the knowledge that this truth can (or could) be demonstrated is sufficient to satisfy the knower.
    Lenore Thomson gives a more specific use of the function:
    p. 42: "When we use Thinking in an Introverted way, we get a mental image of the logical relationships in an entire system. For example, if we're crocheting an initial into a sweater, we're likely to draw a picture rather than work out the logical relationships analytically."
    p. 342: "Introverted Thinking is a right-brain form of judgement that makes us aware of a situation's many variables. When we use it, we recognize our power, as individuals, to exploit some variables at the expense of others."
    p. 343: "This kind of awareness is not only impersonal: it's graphic, immediate, and wholistic. It prompts no predetermined categories of good and bad.
    J. H. Van der Hoop defines Ti as:
    The introvert of thinking-type also takes his systematized experience as his guide; but here the emphasis falls on the inner aspect, thus on the need for objective order and on laws and principles, according to which experience is generally systematized. Abstraction of that part of conscious experience which is revealed as constant and subject to general rules is regarded by the introverted thinker as something of vital significance. He tries to arrange the opinions which he takes over from others in a system of his own. In doing so, he will take up a more critical attitude in regard to the thought-material which he is taught than do extraverted thinkers, and his aim is to follow the guidance of his own opinions and convictions. In consequence, we find a most careful working-over of his own experience, but a tendency to leave out of his reckoning facts and points of view which are not known to him. While the strength of the extraverted thinker lies in his easy application of systematized knowledge, the introverted thinker is particularly good at comparing systems and principles.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukepd View Post
    I disagree, remember I'm talking about when I was a kid. Today I'm always the guy who gets the party 'buzzing'. It's far more likely that I was uncomfortable with being introverted as a kid and became extraverted which is proof of a preference (as already stated) and my preference is extraversion.
    Then you make the argument yourself that you were uncomfortable with introverted tendencies. Sounds as though you decided to be yourself, which happens to be extraverted. What you don’t say, or may have and I missed, is why you were forced into introverted tendencies. I had to develop my Fe because my environment required it. Once I was able to leave, I went back to being naturally Ti. Are you confusing adaptation with who you were?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukepd View Post
    I never once have admitted to being an introvert other than feeling like I was at a young age. I believe I've already discussed this with you and feel as if you don't believe I'm extraverted

    I'd give you video proof, but my personal life is not the business of this forum
    Luke, I could care less whether you are extraverted or not. Only you can make that determination, but you uncharacteristic of any STP I find it amazing that you attempt to make an argument without providing some facts. Specifically that one can change type over time. You do not change type, you merely develop your lesser skills which makes it appear that you have changed. I am in complete disagreement that your type changed from INTP to ESTP or vice-versa. You were either INTP and developed your Ne, or you were always ESTP and adapted to your childhood environment by toning down based on verbal cues. At some point you became more aware of who you truly are once you grew up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukepd View Post
    Also it must be noted that I didn't know about MBTI back when I was a kid so for all I know I could of taken the test and come out ESTP regardless.

    Sorry but incorrect, Fe is NOT required for people skills. ESTPs see it as a bit 'silly' to be honest.
    We have Extraverted Sensing with Introverted Thinking. Our Se is what makes us so charming . The Ti makes us fair and rational, Hence why people like us...
    I think this says it all. Have you actually read “Gifts Differing”, Jung’s definitions or much about type? Type 101:
    Extraverted Sensing occurs when we become aware of what is in the physical world in rich detail. We may be drawn to act on what we experience to get an immediate result. We notice relevant facts and occurrences in a sea of data and experiences, learning all the facts we can about the immediate context or area of focus and what goes on in that context. An active seeking of more and more input to get the whole picture may occur until all sources of input have been exhausted or something else captures our attention. Extraverted Sensing is operating when we freely follow exciting physical impulses or instincts as they come up and enjoy the thrill of action in the present moment. A oneness with the physical world and a total absorption may exist as we move, touch, and sense what is around us. The process involves instantly reading cues to see how far we can go in a situation and still get the impact we want or respond to the situation with presence.
    The process of extraverted Feeling often involves a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure. The “social graces,” such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate, often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling. Keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to act kindly to each other also involve extraverted Feeling. Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others. We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them so we can better adjust our behavior to them. Often with this process, we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs. We may recognize and adhere to shared values, feelings, and social norms to get along.
    I said I could care less whether you were E/I or your type because first only you can make that determination and secondly it goes against my principles in typing people that I don’t know. Your whole question was can types change. I answered that in my initial response, but a tangent has occurred here which is abnormal for ESTP types. Based on your response and remaining true to my principles that I will never tell you what you are, but will have no problem arguing what you are not solely based on what you reveal, I would say you have provided no indication that you are ESTP. In fact you definitely are subjective in your views and seem to have no problem in providing information with no facts. Have you considered ENTP?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Then you make the argument yourself that you were uncomfortable with introverted tendencies. Sounds as though you decided to be yourself, which happens to be extraverted. What you don’t say, or may have and I missed, is why you were forced into introverted tendencies. I had to develop my Fe because my environment required it. Once I was able to leave, I went back to being naturally Ti. Are you confusing adaptation with who you were? Luke, I could care less whether you are extraverted or not. Only you can make that determination, but you uncharacteristic of any STP I find it amazing that you attempt to make an argument without providing some facts. Specifically that one can change type over time. You do not change type, you merely develop your lesser skills which makes it appear that you have changed. I am in complete disagreement that your type changed from INTP to ESTP or vice-versa. You were either INTP and developed your Ne, or you were always ESTP and adapted to your childhood environment by toning down based on verbal cues. At some point you became more aware of who you truly are once you grew up. I think this says it all. Have you actually read “Gifts Differing”, Jung’s definitions or much about type? Type 101: I said I could care less whether you were E/I or your type because first only you can make that determination and secondly it goes against my principles in typing people that I don’t know. Your whole question was can types change. I answered that in my initial response, but a tangent has occurred here which is abnormal for ESTP types. Based on your response and remaining true to my principles that I will never tell you what you are, but will have no problem arguing what you are not solely based on what you reveal, I would say you have provided no indication that you are ESTP. In fact you definitely are subjective in your views and seem to have no problem in providing information with no facts. Have you considered ENTP?
    Contradicting don't you think? You don't care yet you think I might be an ENTP. I'm not in fact ENTP and the ENTPs in vent can confirm that.

    I never once stated I was RIGHT or THIS IS THE WAY IT IS in my original post. I said I challenge meaning I wanted other input and once I got it, I changed my mind and decided I hadn't changed from ESTP all along. We already reached that conclusion twice yet you seem to want to pound a dead horse, so to speak.

    If I was subjective my friend I'd still be telling you all how much you are idiots for not believing my original post without any proof. Am I doing that? No

    Do I need to say it a 4th time?

    I never changed from ESTP and simply developed my functions.

    Or do you wanna argue about how I'm an INFJ or something till we grow white beards and hit each other with walking sticks?

    Your choice

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukepd View Post
    I never once stated I was RIGHT or THIS IS THE WAY IT IS in my original post. I said I challenge meaning I wanted other input and once I got it, I changed my mind and decided I hadn't changed from ESTP all along. We already reached that conclusion twice yet you seem to want to pound a dead horse, so to speak.
    Do you have a clue to the principles of type or what you have written over the course of this thread? You can change your mind all you want Luke, but you never changed back to something that you were not originally. As I said earlier, if it walks like a duck..... and all you have exampled is that you have always been introverted. Start with your title “Changing into an ESTP?”. Now what can anyone infer from that, except you were something other than ESTP?

    Look at your original thread where you confided that,
    “As a kid before the age of of 13-14 I was defiantly not an ESTP. I used to avoid people and day dream! Yes thats right I was an INTP
    You just described being an introvert and again said, you were definitely not ESTP.

    You then further confirm a preference for introversion by saying,
    “However rather than Fe (tests show i have close to zero) I believe it was Se that was developed. I now can see that my Ti was overdeveloped and Se underdeveloped at a younger age and that doesn't mean my type was different from ESTP. Which makes sense because my percentages of S and E are much lower than that of my T It goes to show that not everyone on the internet is stubborn I've changed my mind on this and don't think I've changed from ESTP.”
    You just admitted it yourself that your Ti was overdeveloped, finding it necessary to develop your Se. A little hint, when you test cognitively the greater one function, the lesser it's counterpart, i.e. more Ti=less Fe, more Se=less Ni, etc. Other than you claiming that you were and have returned back to ESTP, you continue to describe preferring introverted thinking.

    In fact the only time that you remotely claim to have an extraverted trait is by saying,
    “Today I'm always the guy who gets the party 'buzzing'.
    So what? Are you implying that people may find a party dull until one of their best friends gets there, who happens to be an introvert? Do you think that it takes an extravert to get a party going. I get parties buzzing as well if I choose to go to them. I also get projects moving when I become involved. Sorry but you really had to dig to come up with such a lame example. Getting this going has no bearing on whether you’re extraverted or introverted since all “Chart the Course” types (INTJ,ISTP,ISTJ and INFJ) do it, along with the "Get Things Going" types. Finally you claim,
    ”It's far more likely that I was uncomfortable with being introverted as a kid and became extraverted which is proof of a preference (as already stated) and my preference is extraversion.”
    Well duh you again admit that you were not happy as being an introverted child, therefore developed some extraversion. So did I as well as most introverts who find it necessary to survive out in the world. Another hint, extraverts don’t develop more extraversion, they develop introspection to tone it down. Introverts develope extraversion.

  5. #65
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    I havnt read many of the posts, but I think it is our Ni/Si. The better we understand what we are daydreaming about the more real it is. I believe we use Ti to create Ni or Si. So in a daydream, we can only go as far as we understand, after that point stupid things start to happen that dont make any sense. This is our mind just randomly connecting things without filtering it.

  6. #66
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    A little hint, when you test cognitively the greater one function, the lesser it's counterpart, i.e. more Ti=less Fe, more Se=less Ni, etc.
    Not necessarily.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Not necessarily.
    Okay, I see your scanty reply and raise you with when does that rule not apply?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ? View Post
    Okay, I see your scanty reply and raise you with when does that rule not apply?
    Anecdotal evidence.

    It's true that it does tend to work that way, but not always. Functions in general get stronger as you use em, atrophy as you don't use em. If you use Ti for instance, then you will tend not to use Fe as much, but its different for each individual.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Do you have a clue to the principles of type or what you have written over the course of this thread? You can change your mind all you want Luke, but you never changed back to something that you were not originally. As I said earlier, if it walks like a duck..... and all you have exampled is that you have always been introverted. Start with your title “Changing into an ESTP?”. Now what can anyone infer from that, except you were something other than ESTP?

    Look at your original thread where you confided that,
    You just described being an introvert and again said, you were definitely not ESTP.

    You then further confirm a preference for introversion by saying, You just admitted it yourself that your Ti was overdeveloped, finding it necessary to develop your Se. A little hint, when you test cognitively the greater one function, the lesser it's counterpart, i.e. more Ti=less Fe, more Se=less Ni, etc. Other than you claiming that you were and have returned back to ESTP, you continue to describe preferring introverted thinking.

    In fact the only time that you remotely claim to have an extraverted trait is by saying, So what? Are you implying that people may find a party dull until one of their best friends gets there, who happens to be an introvert? Do you think that it takes an extravert to get a party going. I get parties buzzing as well if I choose to go to them. I also get projects moving when I become involved. Sorry but you really had to dig to come up with such a lame example. Getting this going has no bearing on whether you’re extraverted or introverted since all “Chart the Course” types (INTJ,ISTP,ISTJ and INFJ) do it, along with the "Get Things Going" types. Finally you claim, Well duh you again admit that you were not happy as being an introverted child, therefore developed some extraversion. So did I as well as most introverts who find it necessary to survive out in the world. Another hint, extraverts don’t develop more extraversion, they develop introspection to tone it down. Introverts develope extraversion.
    And all of these "introverted" traits were explained that I felt this way when I was YOUNGER but don't even remotely feel this way now so I mistakenly THOUGHT I might of CHANGED TYPE which was then explained that I was always extraverted as its MY PREFERENCE but as a kid I had a lower Se and wasn't as expressive.

    I don't need to prove anything to you... I'm the most typical ESTP there is hell I'm even in PROMOTING for what I do for a living. I'm not sure why you seem hell bent on trying to prove I'm something I know I'm not.

    As I said I could prove it to you but I feel thats my personal life is none of your business and you should just take my word for it.

    This is my final post in this thread, I've read the useful relevant posts already thank you for your answers everyone. Feel free to continue discussion.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Anecdotal evidence.

    It's true that it does tend to work that way, but not always. Functions in general get stronger as you use em, atrophy as you don't use em. If you use Ti for instance, then you will tend not to use Fe as much, but its different for each individual.
    How is it different per individual? Give examples of when someone that gains in let's say Ti have equal or considerable use of their Fe.

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