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  1. #51
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Could be. All perceiving functions consider the past experience (Si-Se) or future possibilies (N-Ne). However from my understanding when Se-Ne are considering possibilities, they are getting it from the object directly in front of them. Back to Linda V. Berens, her comparison of Se-Ne is:

    Based on that, even the feeding of Ti is present-tense since it takes some sort of action by the extraverted auxiliary function at the present moment, ergo what is being fed can cause deep contemplation and analysis by Ti. But is that daydreaming since the user may become oblvious to their immediate environment, but they are not thinking haphazzardly as connoted in daydreaming.
    Well, for me, Ne can go off on wild tangents that have nothing to do with whats actually around me. Also, my Ti can work with what's stored in my memory.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
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    "?", so basically what you're saying is this?:
    Ti cannot be involved in daydreaming (it may only be a background observer) because it is a function that is too concerned with the present moment and daydreaming is more about drifting into the past or future. When Ti gets involved, it changes the activity from daydreaming to deep contemplation. The visions that arose during the daydream state -- likely conjured up by Si and/or Ni -- are focused on in the present moment by Ti and in its deliberate, decidedly non-haphazard way.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by xx00oo00xx View Post
    Ha, okay good point.

    Thanks.
    But I don't think what I wrote made sense. I thought your Se would have been the strongest, and your reason for avoiding people and daydreaming was that all the information you took in through Se was being worked over in an intense but haphazard way by your auxiliary, Ti. I thought maybe you were externally active, but couldn't interact with people well, until you started using your Fe more. With that scenario I thought it was plausible that you could be an ESTP, however now I'm just confused. Guess there's maybe just a little more to be learned.
    I have virtually zero Fe.

    ESTPs have great people skills but its not because of our Fe its our Se which is our dominant function.

    Also I didn't quote who said it but its interesting to me that a lot of ESTPs feel that they were more introverted as children

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    I'd like to challenge those who think your MBTI type cannot change over time. I decided I didn't like who I was back then at all. I remember having very few friends...

    YOur "type" isn't decided at 12 or 13...you are trying on different aspects of your personality for size until early adulthood..

    If you have a strong preference towards one or 2 functions, they you will likely use these are your primary and secondary functions. BUt you use ALL functions throughtout your life. you may just use Fi only 10 minutes of a 24 hour period, you may use Se only 2 min of the day, but you used your primary and secondary preferences the majority of time...

    As for changing type...Jung and Meyers believed that you would remain true to type. After watching types for almost 30 years myself, I belive that we generally soften and develop other parts, but they we generally use our most preferred type during 20-40 or later...EAch person develops uniquely..and there is no way you can say type theory IS or ISN'T correct. As you gorw older, you will see what I mean, but if you are under 40 years of age, then you will not understand at a deeper level what I am saying here...

    I say this, because until you really start developing these other functions, you will not realize you didn't really use them before...not like you thought...

    I also think that most people don't truly understand what a "sensing" attitude is when you are an "intuitve" and vice versa. Its only later that you really recognize the difference...you must experience it...

  5. #55
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xx00oo00xx View Post
    "?", so basically what you're saying is this?:
    Ti cannot be involved in daydreaming (it may only be a background observer) because it is a function that is too concerned with the present moment and daydreaming is more about drifting into the past or future. When Ti gets involved, it changes the activity from daydreaming to deep contemplation. The visions that arose during the daydream state -- likely conjured up by Si and/or Ni -- are focused on in the present moment by Ti and in its deliberate, decidedly non-haphazard way.
    Yes, if you connote daydreaming to be an internal process where the person loses awareness of the immediate surroundings then all introverted functions can do that. I guess a lucid daydream could be considered in this matter. However from your connotation, the dreaming is haphazzard which is not what Fi/Ti does since they are both judging functions.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Well, for me, Ne can go off on wild tangents that have nothing to do with whats actually around me. Also, my Ti can work with what's stored in my memory.
    Are you saying that you're daydreaming with an extraverted function?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukepd View Post
    As a kid before the age of of 13-14 I was defiantly not an ESTP. I used to avoid people and day dream! Yes thats right I was an INTP

    So I stopped being that daydreamer that was constantly thinking of all sorts of random ideas, started living in the now, became more aware of my surroundings and finally started interacting more with people... and you know what.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukepd View Post
    In fact probably the best so far and I think you are defiantly on to something. However rather than Fe (tests show i have close to zero) I believe it was Se that was developed.

    I now can see that my Ti was overdeveloped and Se underdeveloped at a younger age and that doesn't mean my type was different from ESTP.

    Which makes sense because my percentages of S and E are much lower than that of my T

    It goes to show that not everyone on the internet is stubborn I've changed my mind on this and don't think I've changed from ESTP
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukepd View Post
    I have virtually zero Fe.

    ESTPs have great people skills but its not because of our Fe its our Se which is our dominant function.

    Also I didn't quote who said it but its interesting to me that a lot of ESTPs feel that they were more introverted as children
    If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, then…… Luke from your own assertions above you admit being an introvert (most likely INTP) that developed extraverted skills. Maybe the quoted text below will shed some insight. It's a conversation that someone started on another forum.

    Your dilemma is not unique since it's easy to confuse one or more dichotomies while taking test that forces a choice. Granted ESTPs in my opinion will be one type that can easily become confused since they are generally team players that can work autonomously and someone who prefers doing to talking. However MBTI is based on preferences for a particular dichotomy. In this case you are either someone who gains energy from external sources with introverted tendencies, or you gain energy internally and have extraverted tendencies. I am the latter, but still am and have always PREFERRED introversion to extraversion:
    First problem: The Myers-Briggs test might not be a good measure of introversion/extroversion.

    Because of the trouble I had placing myself in the extroverted as a Myers-Briggs INTP, I became interested in the type of M-B test questions that put me into the introvert category.

    This is what Gifts Differing, by Isabel Myers, page 7, has to say:

    “The introvert’s main interests are in the inner world of concepts and ideas.”

    “The extrovert is more involved with the outer world of people and things.”

    I pulled out the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, Form G Self-Scorable (Revised), given to me and my husband by our friend who did Myers-Briggs for a living and who scored it for us (she died before I became fascinated by personality typing so I can’t go to her with questions). I counted the number of questions that pertained to I/E and came up with 21. Out of the 21 questions, 17 exclusively concerned relationships with people, 1 had to do with fashion, 1 had to do with things, and 2 weren’t oriented in any particular direction. I’ve picked out some test questions, along with my issues.

    1. “When you are with a group of people, would you usually rather a) join in the talk of the group, or b) talk with one person at a time?” I don’t see how this would guarantee introversion or extroversion. Talking with 1 person rather than 4 doesn’t prove more of an inward focus, or even prove a more in-depth conversation. The question “Would you rather go to a party or stay home and read” would have a more direct connection with E and I, where the question as it’s phrased is geared more to finding out someone’s style of relating to people. In the past, I would have slipped through the cracks on this one, preferring to work the room and flirt with one man at a time. This question would likely have other extroverts slipping through the cracks.

    2. “At parties, do you a) sometimes get bored, or b) always have fun?” This measures how much you enjoy talking to almost anyone, just as long as there’s talk involved. It implies extroversion but again doesn’t prove it. If someone is bored with a party environment and much prefers a night out dancing, for example, that person would be labeled an introvert per this question. Like the previous question, it isn’t definitive…it can just as easily be measuring what an extrovert likes to do for fun as whether someone is an I or E. Again, opportunity for an extrovert to slip through the cracks.

    3. “Which word in each pair appeals to you more: a) lively, or b) calm.” When someone is lively, enough of their energy is being used outwardly that a good guess would be extroversion, but someone who prefers calm could potentially be an extrovert. This question strongly implies extroversion but is not definitive enough.

    I found problems with many other questions, but you get the gist. Test questions such as these should be more bomb proof.

    Another problem with the I/E portion of the test is that it’s weighted very strongly in the direction of ascertaining I/E toward people and doesn’t measure orientation toward things. Since orientation toward things/the physical environment is part of the definition, Myers-Briggs doesn’t truly measure I/E because people who extrovert strongly toward the environment would likely be considered introverts on the test. The I/E part of the test is actually measuring people’s relationship toward other people and not only that, it’s jumping to the conclusion that if people aren’t oriented toward larger groups, they are introverts.

    Second problem: According to the definition of an extrovert, a person can be focused on the environment, and nothing was said about an upper percentage of environment vs. people orientation that would still keep the person in the extroverted category. What category would someone fall in if they were more quiet but still solved their lack of connection with being/essence by focusing outward on the environment, the same way other extraverts focus on people? The quiet person would be playing the same extravert game as talkative people but would likely be classified as an introvert, and there are schools of thought that say introverts can have extraverted tendencies, and those that say no.

    A connected question… Can someone be talkative but an introvert because they think so much while talking and listening? Can someone be more quiet but an extrovert because they’re so focused outward? Does amount of talking correlate directly to E/I or is it just an indication, not proof?

  8. #58
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Yes, if you connote daydreaming to be an internal process where the person loses awareness of the immediate surroundings then all introverted functions can do that. I guess a lucid daydream could be considered in this matter. However from your connotation, the dreaming is haphazzard which is not what Fi/Ti does since they are both judging functions.
    To be clear, what definition of daydreaming are you using in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Are you saying that you're daydreaming with an extraverted function?
    Well, not quite. I'm daydreaming with Ti, with information gained from Ne, which is only tenuously connected to present circumstances. So I guess yes, and sorta no.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Yes, if you connote daydreaming to be an internal process where the person loses awareness...
    Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukepd View Post
    I have virtually zero Fe.
    ESTPs have great people skills but its not because of our Fe its our Se which is our dominant function.
    Okay. I remember reading somewhere that strong extraverted sensors could do this, but I assumed that the heart of people skills was Fe (making Se use more of substitute).

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, then…… Luke from your own assertions above you admit being an introvert (most likely INTP) that developed extraverted skills. Maybe the quoted text below will shed some insight. It's a conversation that someone started on another forum.

    Your dilemma is not unique since it's easy to confuse one or more dichotomies while taking test that forces a choice. Granted ESTPs in my opinion will be one type that can easily become confused since they are generally team players that can work autonomously and someone who prefers doing to talking. However MBTI is based on preferences for a particular dichotomy. In this case you are either someone who gains energy from external sources with introverted tendencies, or you gain energy internally and have extraverted tendencies. I am the latter, but still am and have always PREFERRED introversion to extraversion:
    I disagree, remember I'm talking about when I was a kid. Today I'm always the guy who gets the party 'buzzing'. It's far more likely that I was uncomfortable with being introverted as a kid and became extraverted which is proof of a preference (as already stated) and my preference is extraversion.

    I never once have admitted to being an introvert other than feeling like I was at a young age. I believe I've already discussed this with you and feel as if you don't believe I'm extraverted

    I'd give you video proof, but my personal life is not the business of this forum

    Also it must be noted that I didn't know about MBTI back when I was a kid so for all I know I could of taken the test and come out ESTP regardless.

    This thread isn't to debate my type, I'm as ESTP as they come I assure you. This thread was to answer my question of if types can change, I believed they could change but my opinion on this has changed due to some interesting posts that have been made.

    Quote Originally Posted by xx00oo00xx View Post
    Thanks.

    Okay. I remember reading somewhere that strong extraverted sensors could do this, but I assumed that the heart of people skills was Fe (making Se use more of substitute).
    Sorry but incorrect, Fe is NOT required for people skills. ESTPs see it as a bit 'silly' to be honest.

    We have Extraverted Sensing with Introverted Thinking. Our Se is what makes us so charming . The Ti makes us fair and rational, Hence why people like us...

    In conclusion I'm going to have to agree with Quinlan on this +reps lol

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