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  1. #41
    only bites when provoked
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    In defense of sensors, once you train them, all things being equal (intelligence, physical strength, etc), they'll do things faster and more reliably than an intuitive.

    Example: I'd rather have a bright SP designing my user interfaces and packaging... That's one thing we're considered weak with at my employer (which is NTville) - our stuff isn't finished looking, and I often point out glaringly-obvious stuff we could do to make our products look better/finished. Most flat do not realize this stuff and they are usually cheap changes that result in a much better looking product (also, had they not been after-thoughts they would have been really cheap to implement).
    Last edited by Wolf; 08-10-2007 at 09:49 AM.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  2. #42

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    Working at my part-time job has shown me where sensors excel. I spend a lot of time addressing customer looking for specific things, and wanting to specific answers. Even if I’m told what they’re called, or what I look like, etc… I am rarely of much help on my own.

    So I use the walky-talky (how all the employees communicate with one another) and just as ask for assistance. Nearly all the time, one of the managers or cashiers (strong S types) has the answer. It’s like they are walking information boxes programmed with competence in all things associated to the job. I couldn’t do that, and wouldn’t want to try.

    "A want fastened, wants annihilation."

  3. #43
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    In defense of sensors, once you train them, all things being equal (intelligence, physical strength, etc), they'll do things faster and more reliably than an intuitive.
    That little bit might have been worded better , but in general I agree. An iNtuitive might grasp things more quickly (depending on the task at hand) and need less oversight, but for many tasks, once a Sensor learns the ropes, I would trust them more with the quality of product/service.

    (An N is always at least a little bit "somewhere else" mentally, and not entirely locked into the task.)

    And yes, an SP with an artistic eye is capable of beautiful things. Some NTs are the worst artists I've seen in my life.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #44
    Pareo cattus Natrushka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    . Some NTs are the worst artists I've seen in my life.
    *raises hand* That would be me.

    This signature left intentionally blank.

    Really.

  5. #45
    Senior Member raincrow007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natrushka View Post
    *raises hand* That would be me.
    *raises hand* That would NOT be me.

  6. #46
    Wait, what? Varelse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    And yes, an SP with an artistic eye is capable of beautiful things. Some NTs are the worst artists I've seen in my life.
    I hope that's not me.

    I know a couple STs-one is studying to be an engineer, and figured his life out by about age 15. The other one is one of my good friends, probably a P as well, and she's much better at math than I'll ever be. (I space out too much).

    As I've said before, I'd think that the main cause of my problems with Sensors would be that because they are the majority group, and thus many of them haven't had the motivation to work on their weaker functions as much. An N that refuses to work on their weaker areas bugs me as well-I knew a kid several years ago who had absolutely no idea how to function in the real world.

    One of my jobs is very ISTJ in nature-sitting in a lonely room filing. I can do it, and I wouldn't consider such work demeaning for me right now-plus I do a good job with it-but I much prefer doing computer installations and such, and I do well with that as well.

    My mom (ISFP), has always wanted me to be more of the "ideal" female. Wants me to be a housewife, of all things. My grandma (ISTP?) is a helpful, supportive, and understanding person, who's always encouraged me to develop my intellect.

    And then my ESTP grandpa drives me nuts.

    But, overall, I'd prefer a well-rounded Sensor to an Intuitive with no sense of reality-or one that thinks all Sensors suck.
    We are not poets
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  7. #47
    only bites when provoked
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That little bit might have been worded better , but in general I agree. An iNtuitive might grasp things more quickly (depending on the task at hand) and need less oversight, but for many tasks, once a Sensor learns the ropes, I would trust them more with the quality of product/service.
    It was the simplest way to say it, and the "you" in there is anyone that trains the person.

    I wouldn't say that an intuitive grasps things more quickly, I'd say that we think we grasp something more quickly, whether we do or not, and we could be way off.

    (An N is always at least a little bit "somewhere else" mentally, and not entirely locked into the task.)
    Very true.

    And yes, an SP with an artistic eye is capable of beautiful things. Some NTs are the worst artists I've seen in my life.
    That would be me...
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  8. #48
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    The boldface is one of the key reasons why everyone flocks to being labeled as N. There is no reason to assume Sensors are not intelligent. Of course defining and understanding intelligence is worth an entire discussion of its own. When Sensing is reduced to: unintelligent, cannot grasp humor, no imagination, blindly doing as told, tyrants, martyrs, etc. etc. Well of course no one is going to think they are a Sensor. The result is this convulated confusion about what iNtuition is as well. That kind of thing is frustrating because it makes the entire MBTI system a waste of time in terms of gaining understanding.
    Openness to experience, one of the parameters of the big-five model, is moderately correlated to intelligence. It is a feature of the MBTI instrument too, or a fault, one might say.

    Too bad there are inherent problems with self-evaluating positive traits - a bias, to say the least. Many people happily denounce "intelligence", or try to explain "good common sense" and practical skills as the "real" intelligence tho, which might counter the effect somewhat.

    S people use their lovely and wonderful skills more readily and more often, which I really love as an E type and consider as use of social intelligence. Dance, singing, playing an instrument, I love to see people perform those, and I dont categorize people doing those in the "dumb-box".

    I am a strong N, but I think that a person's intelligence can be well used by doing mostly regular types of practical things, as opposed to theorizing all the time. Bricks can be laid for one building contractor or another, with the choice being made intelligently and the job consisting mostly of S-type skills.

    I have recently began to accept S more in myself and in others. It has been for my benefit as an N, too.

    To me its natural that practically adept S's are underrepresented in venues where theories and world views are being discussed, and with underrepresentation, their views and their lifestyle isn't being promoted and accepted to the full extent possible.

    It's also a way to get back at those S who interrupt us in the dinner table and blurt, "paleonthology, who cares! Check this new phone I bought!"
    We can at least go back on our favourite forums and write disparing comments about them

  9. #49
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    Openness to experience, one of the parameters of the big-five model, is moderately correlated to intelligence. It is a feature of the MBTI instrument too, or a fault, one might say.
    To one sub-factor in the FFM Openness, anyway... namely openness to new ideas. Ironically, the N/S divide is actually correlated strongly to raw IQ (gF and gC for that amtter). That's what you get when you split the population into 1/3 self-identified "smart traits" and 2/3 "down to earth".

    Interestingly enough, unlike raw IQ, there seems to be little practical advantage in being an N. Most of it seems given up by the concentration of overly abstract/etc thinking traits, which while associated with high IQ, aren't particularly correlated to making sense or reflecting reality. A rather strange mixture of traits, really.

    Really though, I think the concept of "S" laying bricks is utter bullshit and that is what I'd like to draw attention to. Se is not about playing sports or being adrenaline monkeys. Si is not about being rigid religious/cultural ethnocentric.

    ISTPs in management positions, for example, use their S preference towards planning and acting... and tend to be pretty good at it. Even with a heavy emphasis towards lower IQs and more mundane levels of jobs, Ss are not pushed out by Ns at all... just as the STJs are the ones creating and running most companies on this planet, corporate, military or otherwise. The underlying point being that Ns use intelligence as their differentiating point and the way to self-identify themselves as special and unique. The rest of the world doesn't really care, so it ends up just being a circle of people patting themselves on the back.

    My trip through INTPdom taught me all I needed to know about that, heh.

  10. #50
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    To one sub-factor in the FFM Openness, anyway... namely openness to new ideas. Ironically, the N/S divide is actually correlated strongly to raw IQ (gF and gC for that amtter). That's what you get when you split the population into 1/3 self-identified "smart traits" and 2/3 "down to earth".

    Interestingly enough, unlike raw IQ, there seems to be little practical advantage in being an N. Most of it seems given up by the concentration of overly abstract/etc thinking traits, which while associated with high IQ, aren't particularly correlated to making sense or reflecting reality. A rather strange mixture of traits, really.
    Sorry but the argument seems to have a hole to me? When you say - unlike raw IQ, there seems to be little practical advantage in being an N - actually the practical advantage in being an N can be identified as high IQ, given its general strong tie to earnings, academic performance, etc

    My theory - which I think I've already exposed, and you've already replied to - is simply that smart people tend to score as N in MBTI tests given their differential higher capability for abstract thinking. You might object that given that this is what happens, we have no other way of actually finding out who's N, or who's S.


    ISTPs in management positions, for example, use their S preference towards planning and acting... and tend to be pretty good at it.
    Why do you think that those ISTPs in management have low IQ? I talk all the time with an ESTP friend of mine that dropped out of school when he was 11 (!!!) and now he's the vice-president of an electronic components factory (with loads of EE older than him that work for him). He understands everything that happens in the "real-world" so fast that it bewilders most people that know him. Yet school just bored him, because he couldn't see why it was important to learn how to solve equations without any real-world application. I'm sure if we were to administer him an IQ test he'd score in the 120-130 range no doubt.

    Even with a heavy emphasis towards lower IQs and more mundane levels of jobs, Ss are not pushed out by Ns at all... just as the STJs are the ones creating and running most companies on this planet, corporate, military or otherwise.
    Being that my father is in the military, and being that in the place where I live the neighborhood is formed mostly by people from the army - I can assure you that the higher ranks of the military are really, really much smarter than the lower. Right now to be an Official you have to know several languages, know how to operate machinery, know how to use technology, know how to write detailed reports. This is highly skilled labor, imho.

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