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  1. #31
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    The S type description that is part of the collective MBTIC consciousness is different from canonical S type descriptions. I don't think you can argue that it has a negative flavor to it. Due to this place's history, there are plenty of people here who don't acknowledge that practical, productive, and loyal are significantly positive traits or that they are the realm of the S. It's just natural when (the general) you are in a community that values certain traits and downplays others, that you'd want to emphasize your positives and downplay your negatives, as perceived by that community.
    I did not mean to imply there was anything wrong with them being proud of it. I was only meaning to say I would not think the more negative descriptions, no matter who they come from, would make them decide they didn't want to self label as an S type.

    Over at INTPc they are fairly negative about Feelers and really if anything interacting with them made me more sure about being a Feeler and I could laugh at their negative descriptions of the F type because I could see both the truth of it in myself and also the hyperbolic propaganda in their comments.

  2. #32
    No me digas, che! Recoleta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I understand where the martyr/tyrant concept for [male] ISTJs came from, at least in regards to the ones I have had as friends and/or acquaintances.

    For many, there was an odd mix of passivity and not wanting to break the peace, coupled with very strong opinions about the way life and/or the world should be. (Often the topics of politics or religion will bring this conflict to the surface.) So they feel like the world is changing around them and things are going to hell in handbasket (either in their home, or in their workplace, or in society, or in their religious culture, etc... some sort of "institution" of which they have a clear internalized Si definition).

    But when it comes to personal issues and strong emotions, they usually try to rein them in and not express them, because of the "illogic" -- and stuff them, become martyrish sometimes and usually just grumbling about their fate. When they finally cannot deal anymore, they can become very demanding and tyrant-like, clamping down on everyone else. And then they're prone to stuffing it again, if the demands do not change anything, going back to the martyr extreme and grumbling.

    Other types do undergo similar stresses, but tend to react differently or not as extreme of a flip.

    For an ISTJ tyrant with some martyr features, you could look at Ricky's father in "American Beauty," who actually would be considered actively abusive. But most ISTJ males are not dysfunctional like that, they just have the same level of issues as any other type.

    Basically, the response depends heavily on the ISTJ's ability to deal with change in the external world, compared to his internal idealized world.

    I cannot describe female ISTJs too well because I have only really known one in real life, and known OF another... and I think the female brain and socialization helps them to better mediate between the internal and external worlds and communicate better. The men tend to think more just in terms of power ("Do I assert myself, or do I just sit passively and hold my tongue?"), whereas the women are more willing to not internalize the entire thing.



    PM's post was good, but this factor must also be taken into consideration.
    I agree with much of what you said here...and I do see what you described in the males to also be partly true in female ISTJ's. From a female ISTJ's perspective I can honestly say that yes, I too have very strong internalized opinions about the idealized world/the way things should be. However, I often care more about keeping peace and harmony with others than I do about being right. I hate being in conflict with others...espeically with people I don't know well. It is likely I will get into a strong/passionate debate with someone only if I know them well and trust them (where I feel safe to say exactly what is on my mind)...otherwise I will keep my mouth shut and my dialogue will only continue in my head (mostly mentally "rolling my eyes" at them).

    But yes, how you react as an ISTJ does have a lot to do with your ability to deal with the external world. It's easy to explode when you're really rigid and what you think is right does not nearly match reality, but I feel that I am at least faily well-rounded just because of the experiences I have had. Over the past few years I have forced myself to be put in situations with a variety of different people in some rather uncomfortable and unfamiliar situations. I studied abroad in 3 different countries with 3 different groups of all new people, and lived with host families in all 3 places (practically an ISTJ's worst nightmare) ISTJ's probably prefer to stay in their comfort zone most of the time, but I've noticed that when I got out of it it created the most difficult/annoying/wonderful/insightful experiences I have ever had. Yes, I sometimes had really tough times dealing with people...especially crazy host families that would say the most ridiculous things. For example, one of my host families once asked me what the capital of Latvia was...and when I told them I didn't know they basically told me that it was because I lived in "the American bubble" and that I didn't care about anything outside of my own country because Americans think they are the best at everything (which is not true at all). But I just kinda shrugged my shoulders at them partly because I didn't want to anger them...I still had 3 months left in their house, partly because of the language barrier, and partly because it wasn't worth my energy to argue out. If I wanted to convince them otherwise I would win it through life example, not through anything I said to them. I just simply found a friend within the program to vent to and we had a great discussion about crazy things our families have said to us. So I guess all that to say that I care more about harmony with others than being right. I love a good debate, but it rarely gets personal. I have argued with my best friends (ENFP and INTJ) about religion, homosexuality, politics, etc but I still love and value my friends way too much to throw away our friendship on a disagreement...plus, I am extremely loyal. If you are my friend, I picked you for a reason and there was a lot of criteria you had to meet to get there.

  3. #33
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    You guys can go ahead and let this thread die now, I forgot that the subject had been talked to death.

    I need to not post when I'm tired.

  4. #34
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I'm in favor of letting it stay up because I love the term "intuitards."
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  5. #35
    Senior Member Lookin4theBestNU's Avatar
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    Yes that is a rather original insult .
    "At points of clarity, I realize that my life on earth is meaningless, and that I am merely a pawn in a bigger game. A game I cannot possibly understand or have control of. Thankfully, before depression sets in, I drift back into my cloudy, bewildered daily routine." **Joel Patrick Warneke**

  6. #36
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    It reminds me of what my older brother calls gifted kids with limited social skills: giftards. (For the record, and so nobody hates me for thinking that's funny, I was a giftard myself.)
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  7. #37
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Recoleta View Post
    in "the American bubble" and that I didn't care about anything outside of my own country
    Man, that reminds me of when I was staying with a host family in Quebec... and over there, they make lunches like I make dinner... at a buffet. It's gigantic.

    Anyway, They made me way too much to eat... egg sandwiches... so I threw the remainder of if out (namely because it was 3 whole sandwiches that were about 2 inches thick each, along with the rest of the meal.) I got such a lecture on throwing food out... apparently it was because I was "English" that I didn't know how rude it was to throw food out that they had prepared.

    I always found it amusing that the simplest answers are rejected for the biased ones. You know, like answers like "I don't eat 3000 calories a day" or "I hate eggs". Both of which are true.

  8. #38
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'm in favor of letting it stay up because I love the term "intuitards."
    I second that. I love the mental picture of a dancing storm-trooper yelling out the thread title in surfer dude speak.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #39
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    I need to not post when I'm tired.

    If I had dime for everytime I have said that...

  10. #40
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I did not mean to imply there was anything wrong with them being proud of it. I was only meaning to say I would not think the more negative descriptions, no matter who they come from, would make them decide they didn't want to self label as an S type.
    Who wants to be unintelligent? Do you think Sensors generally like the idea of supposedly being dumber than iNtuitives? Do you think they like the idea of not being able to understand [certain types of] humor? I really doubt that. It's also not necessarily a conscious decision. If someone is genuinely trying to figure out their type and encounter the above comments, knowing they are intelligent, it gives them reason to think it's not a good fit for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Over at INTPc they are fairly negative about Feelers and really if anything interacting with them made me more sure about being a Feeler and I could laugh at their negative descriptions of the F type because I could see both the truth of it in myself and also the hyperbolic propaganda in their comments.
    Kinda know 'bout that. You can spend an entire year there without expressing any emotion, but if you have the wrong letters by your name, look out. I found those attitudes to cause debate to be like walking through thick mud. That kind of subjectivity and prejudice twists such arguments beyond reason. When such thinking is challenged, it is sometimes merely dismissed rather than examined. It's just not worth trying to untangle a surreal web that once was, or had hoped to be, logic. Where do you go from there? Just leave people to their prejudices. It is disappointing. I have always hoped for more from people who expound objectivity and reason. It is likely that such are capable of more, but fall onto lazy ideas and tactics. (i speak of a small, but vocal, minority)

    I think having spent close to two years on that other side of the coin is precisely what makes me more aware of how a Sensor could potentially experience the prejudice simmering here. I would think a Sensor could be disappointed that those who supposedly have the ability to think globally, objectively and/or with empathy fall so short and act with ignorance and prejudice. These sites have left me with more realization of being misunderstood. I stay because of those people i value. The prejudices must be endured. Those cliques about Feelers leave me more misunderstood than in most any other scenario I have encountered, and trust me... that says ALOT.
    Last edited by labyrinthine; 08-09-2007 at 08:23 AM. Reason: removed certain references
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

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