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  1. #11
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I've said this before but the S/N divide is the hardest to discern unless you're dealing with a person who is very heavily Sensing or Intuiting.
    Have you considered that as an ENFJ perhaps you're stellar at drawing out the iNtuitiveness of the Sensors you meet?

    I know I have a hard time getting my S friends, acquaintances and coworkers interested in MBTI, let alone getting them to discuss the kind of topics we discuss here. And it's not because I disparage Sensing. I think I just present MBTI in too N a way.

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natrushka View Post
    No, not necessarily. Being responsible, loyal and duty minded doesn't make one a tyrant. It can make living with one interesting, though. I imagine if you didn't have a strong will or sense of yourself it might be harder; and it would depend on how rounded the ISTJ was. But you can say that about any type.
    I understand where the martyr/tyrant concept for [male] ISTJs came from, at least in regards to the ones I have had as friends and/or acquaintances.

    For many, there was an odd mix of passivity and not wanting to break the peace, coupled with very strong opinions about the way life and/or the world should be. (Often the topics of politics or religion will bring this conflict to the surface.) So they feel like the world is changing around them and things are going to hell in handbasket (either in their home, or in their workplace, or in society, or in their religious culture, etc... some sort of "institution" of which they have a clear internalized Si definition).

    But when it comes to personal issues and strong emotions, they usually try to rein them in and not express them, because of the "illogic" -- and stuff them, become martyrish sometimes and usually just grumbling about their fate. When they finally cannot deal anymore, they can become very demanding and tyrant-like, clamping down on everyone else. And then they're prone to stuffing it again, if the demands do not change anything, going back to the martyr extreme and grumbling.

    Other types do undergo similar stresses, but tend to react differently or not as extreme of a flip.

    For an ISTJ tyrant with some martyr features, you could look at Ricky's father in "American Beauty," who actually would be considered actively abusive. But most ISTJ males are not dysfunctional like that, they just have the same level of issues as any other type.

    Basically, the response depends heavily on the ISTJ's ability to deal with change in the external world, compared to his internal idealized world.

    I cannot describe female ISTJs too well because I have only really known one in real life, and known OF another... and I think the female brain and socialization helps them to better mediate between the internal and external worlds and communicate better. The men tend to think more just in terms of power ("Do I assert myself, or do I just sit passively and hold my tongue?"), whereas the women are more willing to not internalize the entire thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    Have you considered that as an ENFJ perhaps you're stellar at drawing out the iNtuitiveness of the Sensors you meet?
    PM's post was good, but this factor must also be taken into consideration.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13

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    Bah. People are people. The type doesn't define the person; the person resembles aspects of the type. S's aren't inherently dumb (though to believe so, is), nor are intuitives necessarily brilliant. We usually assume that people with beliefs in accordance with our own, or who exhibit traits we admire, are more intelligent than the majority, but that mindset is at least a bit elitist and ego-stroking.

    For instance I can't stand reading all the "Sure, coming from an S..." shit Shrimpei gets for being an SJ, when she is one of the more reasonable members on the forum. If you read a brilliant post, then look over and see the poster's type is ESFJ, would you dismiss what you just read and agreed with?

    This sort of thinking is what gives MBTI and any kind of typology a bad name.


    Okay, okay. /rant
    Christ, what an imagination I've got!

  4. #14
    only bites when provoked
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Not all sensors suck, but I think a substantial majority of them are sheep. Sensors are more likely to believe government and corporate propaganda, because it's "practical". Sensors are more likely to submit to authority than to challenge it. That's a major problem with this country.

    I find most sensors to be uninteresting and annoying. Not all are, and I appreciate most on this forum (and INTPc). This is just my horribly biased opinion from my interaction with them.
    Although this is true, you're seriously overestimating non-sensors. I had a discussion with an ENFP the other day that basically proved to me that they can be government/leadership-following sheep just like our sensor majority.

    There is some difficulty relating, but I'm very introverted, and quite intuitive, so my jumps are often quite confusing to many a sensor, even many intuition-leaning people are left confused. I've worked to change myself so I make more sense, because when growing up my mix of intuitive leaps and intelligence resulted in a lot of difficulties with those rare times that I interacted with other people. The combination bothers me sometimes, and drove some of my method-teachers crazy because my mind could flat skip steps without ever cognitively touching the intermediate steps that they wanted to see. I somehow entirely automated these processes without thinking about it. I'm sure I still do it (in fact, I can think of a few examples this week), but it's not as glaringly-obvious due to the differences between academia and professional settings, since the latter doesn't care as much about the process as correct results, while the former is the opposite.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  5. #15
    Pareo cattus Natrushka's Avatar
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    I suspect with the ISTJ I have the most interaction with the martyr aspect isn't an issue; the man loathes passive aggressiveness as much as I do. Perhaps growing up in a home with ESFPs tempered him? He is a lot more touchy feely than I am, and when it comes to communicating his feelings I think he does a better job than I do... I suspect the interaction we have plays a large part in things - how could it not.

    I could see him running roughshot over someone else, if pushed far enough, though. His desire to get along and make things right seems stronger than his need to have things 'his way'. He will debate something until the cows come home, and he thinks if he talks long enough, and rationally enough he'll get you to see it his way. He's had to modify his approach dealing with me

    This signature left intentionally blank.

    Really.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Although this is true, you're way overestimating non-sensors. I had a discussion with an ENFP the other day that basically proved to me that they can be government/leadership-following sheep just like most others.
    I don't doubt this happens. I just think it's more likely for Ss than for Ns.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #17
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luridlemur View Post
    For instance I can't stand reading all the "Sure, coming from an S..." shit Shrimpei gets for being an SJ, when she is one of the more reasonable members on the forum.
    Word.

    If you read a brilliant post, then look over and see the poster's type is ESFJ, would you dismiss what you just read and agreed with?
    I would hope no one here would do something so stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Natrushka View Post
    I suspect with the ISTJ I have the most interaction with the martyr aspect isn't an issue; the man loathes passive aggressiveness as much as I do. Perhaps growing up in a home with ESFPs tempered him? He is a lot more touchy feely than I am, and when it comes to communicating his feelings I think he does a better job than I do... I suspect the interaction we have plays a large part in things - how could it not.
    It's hard to tell what is impacting what, honestly.

    There are different flavors of ISTJ men even based on generation (Baby Boomer, Gen X, etc.), and the nuclear family in childhood (parents and siblings) has a profound influence as well. That's what makes delineating between type and environment so difficult.

    My FIL tends to not get too aggressive -- he is mostly docile, and very kind-hearted. His parents died in a car accident when he was 2; he was adopted by a judge (a very strong and assertive xxTJ type; he got sent to military school in his teens; and so he has always been more of a follower and "not rock the boat" person, who just sometimes gets cranky when his environment is disturbed.

    One of my friends growing up was a single child. His parents were the age of most of people's grandparents. His father was kind but very gruff, his mother was very doting. He tended to be more chatty like his mom. He was a Gen X'er, so he was more relaxed in his appearance and social conventions... but he was more irritable and prone to complaining and grumbling and waxing on about the ills of society.

    What is the "normal" type of ISTJ? Did having an imposing authority figure as a father, who was obviously very demanding and rigorous in the home, cow my FIL and make him more docile.. coupled with the emotional pain of losing his parents, making it harder for him to want to broach emotional topics (because he tends to cry)? Or was the attachment to the mother (and her more chatty nature) accompanied by the relational reluctance of the father, coupled with him being a bit spoiled because he was the only child, allow my friend to feel more free to voice his own opinions, even if they were very negative? What exactly is the "natural" ISTJ, and what is the environmental influence?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I would hope no one here would do something so stupid.
    Of course not.

    This has never come up before... and it's not like the line right above this quote refers to it happening.

    Nope. :steam:

    (To be fair, if they agreed with the stance because it matched their own, they wouldn't dismiss it... they'd patronize the poster. "Wow, an enlightened ESFJ, who would of thought?")

  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    (To be fair, if they agreed with the stance because it matched their own, they wouldn't dismiss it... they'd patronize the poster. "Wow, an enlightened ESFJ, who would of thought?")
    All right. I concede THAT point. That happens a little too often for my tastes... although some types of people (we won't confine it to an MBTI type, to reduce controversy) get their jollies off poking fun at stereotypes by acting stereotypical.

    [It is the stereotype being made fun of, NOT the ESFJ.]
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Not all sensors suck, but I think a substantial majority of them are sheep. Sensors are more likely to believe government and corporate propaganda, because it's "practical". Sensors are more likely to submit to authority than to challenge it. That's a major problem with this country.
    Everyone is sheep. Sensors follow their shepherds while iNtuitives are those floaty, imaginary sheep you try to count when you fall asleep. Which ones are better? It's a tough call.


    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

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