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[SP] uses of type, and why I'm leaving

sarah

soft and silky
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
548
MBTI Type
isfp
This probably isn't the best place for this, but I feel like I ought to at least explain myself, since I've been asked to...

It's not just that it's a new year, and at this time I always feel the need to make some changes that I think will help me accomplish my goals and give me time to do things I really want to do. Although that may be part of it. I'm simply not enamored of the way many people use psychological type, and am no longer interested in logging in every day to read complaints and generalizations which have no substance behind them, and I've noticed that responding to these posts mostly only gets me damned as being politically correct or oversensitive. It's a shame that being fair, honest and sensitive to how type is used is thought by many to be a detriment rather than an asset.

I believe it's true that you catch more flies with honey, and maybe I haven't been diplomatic enough in this forum. I admit I do have a quick temper, (although it dissipates pretty fast) and I also admit that I have a hard time suffering fools gladly. I think in this instance, the people I don't care to have anything more to do with are those who have chosen to use pscyhological type as a weapon to bash "types" of people who have hurt them in the past (and they're quick to label whole types as being a problem, never just individuals), or people who would rather complain about their relationships or communication problems than actually take steps to make things better.

I passionately believe that the only positive way of using type is to see it as a tool that informs you as to the best way to ask the right kinds of questions, and also frame people's responses in a positive way. It also seems obvious that most of what's labeled as type-related really isn't. Your ex-boyfriends' messy habits, your bosses lack of thoughtfulness, your best friends' flightiness, your mother's bossiness, etc., is probably related more to what they grew up with and what's going on in their individual lives, not their "type code". I suspect most of what people like to believe is type-related is actually just the result of individuals we know having lived at a certain time, in a certain place, under certain circumstances, and that if type had anything to do with the expression of these behavior traits, it influenced the motives behind the expression of them, not the behavior itself. Yes, I believe there are observable patterns of behavior and that this is to some degree related to type (as Keirsey would say), but patterns that relate to temperament are not the same thing as patterns of contextual behavior. It seems to me that the more you actually learn and understand about type, the less you see it as being about labeling contextual behavior, and the more you begin to understand what's meant by the core needs and values that drive people, and the better you can understand that each set of needs and values are valuable, good, and worth including people of each type in your life as much as possible, because diversity is good.

I'm done reading forum posts for the reasons I mentioned, but I wanted to say I've really enjoyed some of the conversations I've had here, and that I really would rather just privately use type in a way that I feel is positive rather than log in every day to see the same old gripes related to contextual behavior being linked to type codes. Anyone who feels like talking with me about type is welcome to send me a PM (I'll get email notification of it) and I will gladly respond, as I've enjoyed meeting a number of people here. :)

(I will not, however, be responding to anyone who just wants to start a fight or diss me for being politically correct.)
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
I believe it's true that you catch more flies with honey, and maybe I haven't been diplomatic enough in this forum. I admit I do have a quick temper, (although it dissipates pretty fast) and I also admit that I have a hard time suffering fools gladly. I think in this instance, the people I don't care to have anything more to do with are those who have chosen to use pscyhological type as a weapon to bash "types" of people who have hurt them in the past (and they're quick to label whole types as being a problem, never just individuals), or people who would rather complain about their relationships or communication problems than actually take steps to make things better.

I passionately believe that the only positive way of using type is to see it as a tool that informs you as to the best way to ask the right kinds of questions, and also frame people's responses in a positive way. It also seems obvious that most of what's labeled as type-related really isn't. Your ex-boyfriends' messy habits, your bosses lack of thoughtfulness, your best friends' flightiness, your mother's bossiness, etc., is probably related more to what they grew up with and what's going on in their individual lives, not their "type code". I suspect most of what people like to believe is type-related is actually just the result of individuals we know having lived at a certain time, in a certain place, under certain circumstances, and that if type had anything to do with the expression of these behavior traits, it influenced the motives behind the expression of them, not the behavior itself. Yes, I believe there are observable patterns of behavior and that this is to some degree related to type (as Keirsey would say), but patterns that relate to temperament are not the same thing as patterns of contextual behavior. It seems to me that the more you actually learn and understand about type, the less you see it as being about labeling contextual behavior, and the more you begin to understand what's meant by the core needs and values that drive people, and the better you can understand that each set of needs and values are valuable, good, and worth including people of each type in your life as much as possible, because diversity is good.

I totally agree with everything I bolded. I feel exactly the same way. I've had so many people confuse, annoy, and frustrate me with that kind of behavior, even ones I've thought of as friends previously for other reasons. I've wanted to leave before, too (and for the same reasons), but I never had the willpower to stick to that resolution. Something always pulled me back. Maybe you'll be pulled back, too, eventually... or maybe your will is stronger than mine. We'll see, won't we? ;)
 

Unique

New member
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
1,702
Oh man.... sarahs posts were like some of the few I actually enjoyed, now I feel like leaving :[
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Oh man.... sarahs posts were like some of the few I actually enjoyed, now I feel like leaving :[

yea, I feel like leaving too now :(

No, no, please don't. We can't afford to lose any more SP members!

If you go, people will just keep believing the stereotypes unhindered. If they see how you actually are by your presence on the forum, that alone will make them question the stereotypes. Without actual SPs, people will be totally free to wallow in their distorted perceptions unchecked. Surely that isn't what you want to happen?
 

A Schnitzel

WTF is this dude saying?
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
1,155
MBTI Type
INTP
Don't use the forum as a personal crusade. That will only wear you down and will give you nothing in return.

I use it to socialize and joke around. It's a good place to use humour that is natural to you without societal constraints, socialize, share and look at art, but I'm always going to avoid in engaging in Typology discussions openly. If you already have the theory you're interested in ironed out in your head what's the point in engaging in the discussion directly related to Typology?
 

Jeffster

veteran attention whore
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
6,743
MBTI Type
ESFP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx
No, no, please don't. We can't afford to lose any more SP members!

If you go, people will just keep believing the stereotypes unhindered. If they see how you actually are by your presence on the forum, that alone will make them question the stereotypes. Without actual SPs, people will be totally free to wallow in their distorted perceptions unchecked. Surely that isn't what you want to happen?

Yeah, that's what I feel too. I think we need to stick around and keep speaking up where we can, try to at least make a little difference maybe. I never called Sarah "oversensitive" but I did say I think she was reading sinister agendas into things that weren't necessarily there. But anyway, by the nature of SPs, not many of us usually want to spend a lot of time talking about theoretical stuff, so any input we can offer seems like it would have some value. I'm surprised that I'm even still posting here, but what keeps happening is every time I think I'm sick of it, something pulls me back in.

So, anyway, I will miss Sarah's input but I hope she will chime in from time to time. She's already graciously agreed to help me with my Artisan Temperament thread, so hopefully we can do some more edu-macating soon. ;) Meantime, I wish Sarah all the best and thank her for her contributions here, and even for her scolding me in private, because sometimes I need that. :newwink:
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
11,429
MBTI Type
eNFJ
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Allow me, if you will, to share a bit of a personal anecdote.

When I first arrived on this board, I was treated like Satan. Apparently, ENFJs are hideous, awful, back-stabbing, psyche-twisting, baby-eating freak shows that LIVE to devour human beings by the carload. I had no idea this was the general perception, and I took a great deal of flak. I rode it out and realized that two things were occurring:

1. I was up against petty random bitter jerks.

2. I was up against good people who'd had bad experiences and needed some positive contact. I gained a lot of friends that were initially at odds with me, people that I find truly fascinating, smart and fun to be around. My board buddy, for example - "Whatever". She'd had a horrendous experience with a nasty piece of work that left her VERY gunshy of ENFJs. I took it upon myself to befriend her because I liked her, she was funny, and I thought we would make great friends. All of the above is true.

As to the Group 1 people, how did I overcome them? Obviously, I sent them to Hell. Where else does a devil like me send clownshoes like that?? No need to leave! :D
 

Jeffster

veteran attention whore
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
6,743
MBTI Type
ESFP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx
Yeah, what Pink said. She's better than me at the saying stuff. Fluh.
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
11,429
MBTI Type
eNFJ
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Yeah, what Pink said. She's better than me at the saying stuff. Fluh.

When Jeffster arrived, he was grossly outnumbered on the S/N front, but he became popular right away because he has a winning personality and a good sense of humor. His bonhomie won people over. I see Jeffster as being a part of the board community, not standing apart. I'm glad he stuck around - we need more Ss to balance the scale.

It's not about ganging up on people, it's about understanding each other, and if an S has found their way to the board, then certainly the odds are good that they want to improve their understanding of themselves and those not like them, so why should someone pick fights or act like a jerk? I don't understand that mindset, yet it happens.

AHAHA, Jeff, I accidentally found "fluh" at the Urban Dictionary! LOL!!

Fluh:

1. a word to be used when all other words require too much effort.

2. A word used when someone dies.

3. A loud atheist sneeze. (hahah!)
 

Anja

New member
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
2,967
MBTI Type
INFP
I don't know about the rest of Jeffster but he's got nice legs.:wubbie:
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
I never called Sarah "oversensitive" but I did say I think she was reading sinister agendas into things that weren't necessarily there.

Hmm... her Ni was obviously working overtime, but I do think there was something to what she was saying, even if she did end up exaggerating the issue in her mind. With all the moral rectitude, frustration with incompetence and misuse, and concern about long-term implications, she barely seemed like an SP at all these last few days. It's depressing, because I kind of thought SPs were above this kind of behavior, freer than the rest of us. Now I see... their fun gets ruined by their worries, fears, and values too, sometimes. If even an SP can't escape them, I know I never will. :(

I'm surprised that I'm even still posting here, but what keeps happening is every time I think I'm sick of it, something pulls me back in.

That's exactly how it is. You took the words right out of my mouth. :yes:
 

wildcat

New member
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
3,622
MBTI Type
INTP
This probably isn't the best place for this, but I feel like I ought to at least explain myself, since I've been asked to...

It's not just that it's a new year, and at this time I always feel the need to make some changes that I think will help me accomplish my goals and give me time to do things I really want to do. Although that may be part of it. I'm simply not enamored of the way many people use psychological type, and am no longer interested in logging in every day to read complaints and generalizations which have no substance behind them, and I've noticed that responding to these posts mostly only gets me damned as being politically correct or oversensitive. It's a shame that being fair, honest and sensitive to how type is used is thought by many to be a detriment rather than an asset.

I believe it's true that you catch more flies with honey, and maybe I haven't been diplomatic enough in this forum. I admit I do have a quick temper, (although it dissipates pretty fast) and I also admit that I have a hard time suffering fools gladly. I think in this instance, the people I don't care to have anything more to do with are those who have chosen to use pscyhological type as a weapon to bash "types" of people who have hurt them in the past (and they're quick to label whole types as being a problem, never just individuals), or people who would rather complain about their relationships or communication problems than actually take steps to make things better.

I passionately believe that the only positive way of using type is to see it as a tool that informs you as to the best way to ask the right kinds of questions, and also frame people's responses in a positive way. It also seems obvious that most of what's labeled as type-related really isn't. Your ex-boyfriends' messy habits, your bosses lack of thoughtfulness, your best friends' flightiness, your mother's bossiness, etc., is probably related more to what they grew up with and what's going on in their individual lives, not their "type code". I suspect most of what people like to believe is type-related is actually just the result of individuals we know having lived at a certain time, in a certain place, under certain circumstances, and that if type had anything to do with the expression of these behavior traits, it influenced the motives behind the expression of them, not the behavior itself. Yes, I believe there are observable patterns of behavior and that this is to some degree related to type (as Keirsey would say), but patterns that relate to temperament are not the same thing as patterns of contextual behavior. It seems to me that the more you actually learn and understand about type, the less you see it as being about labeling contextual behavior, and the more you begin to understand what's meant by the core needs and values that drive people, and the better you can understand that each set of needs and values are valuable, good, and worth including people of each type in your life as much as possible, because diversity is good.

I'm done reading forum posts for the reasons I mentioned, but I wanted to say I've really enjoyed some of the conversations I've had here, and that I really would rather just privately use type in a way that I feel is positive rather than log in every day to see the same old gripes related to contextual behavior being linked to type codes. Anyone who feels like talking with me about type is welcome to send me a PM (I'll get email notification of it) and I will gladly respond, as I've enjoyed meeting a number of people here. :)

(I will not, however, be responding to anyone who just wants to start a fight or diss me for being politically correct.)
Quite right.

The match of the measure is not the measure of the match.
The original does not system.
 

raz

Let's make this showy!
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
2,523
MBTI Type
LoLz
Quite right.

The match of the measure is not the measure of the match.
The original does not system.

You made me have a sudden urge to watch this

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TDSLaDZHLo"]Architect's speech[/YOUTUBE]
 

Walking Tourist

it's tea time!
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
1,452
MBTI Type
esfp
Enneagram
7
Apparently, ENFJs are hideous, awful, back-stabbing, psyche-twisting, baby-eating freak shows that LIVE to devour human beings by the carload. :D

Um... I'll go momentarily off topic (one of my better skills) and ask why this discussion of the ENFJ care and feeding isn't in the diet and nutrition section..:devil: (My evil twin asks if you would like a cup of tea to go with those human beings that you are devouring by the carload!!!)

OK, back on topic... I'll miss you here, Sarah. I hope that you come back when you're ready!:blush:
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,037
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Sarah, I found your post well thought out and insightful. I hope you come back at some point. I agree that the type generalizations are basically nonsense. It is unfortunate that people like you, Pink, and others have faced the negativity as you have. I have always enjoyed your posts. People really do try to make the world simpler through prejudicial thinking. I doubt that will change completely, but it does help to have some people around willing to challenge ideas that result from intellectual laziness and a lack of critical thought as is seen in prejudicial typism. I think it might be worse for the people who embrace that approach because it results in more disappointment and pessimism. When faced with the negativity, it can help to realize there are also insightful posts and interesting people to know here, including some of the negative people. I suppose most people have some types of prejudice, so in a way seeing it expressed from others can help us examine our own flawed thinking.
 

CrystalViolet

lab rat extraordinaire
Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Messages
2,152
MBTI Type
XNFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I like to take the time to apologize for any unfair generalization I have done since I've joined this forum. I forget sometimes there are people behind those letters here, who's individual differences may not reflect my personal experience.
If it's any help to anybody else, I don't exactly feel welcome here either. Dismissed is the word that comes to mind, which is a shame, because I actually kinda like it here. Maybe it's that no-one has time to warm to me, but I also detect a certain basis to my type as well.
Above all, Yes, I think typology gets misused here in certain circumstances. In some respects this confirms what I've been thinking about this place, but yeah, every time I want to call it quits I get sucked in, even I'm not participating in a theard. There is some good discussion here as well, and I enjoy reading it.
I'm sorry to see you go, even though I didn't know you that well. I feel bad because yes, I'm guilty as charged, but I'm willing to accept that I was in the wrong.
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
11,429
MBTI Type
eNFJ
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Um... I'll go momentarily off topic (one of my better skills) and ask why this discussion of the ENFJ care and feeding isn't in the diet and nutrition section..:devil: (My evil twin asks if you would like a cup of tea to go with those human beings that you are devouring by the carload!!!)

Why thank you! Tea is a superb digestive! :D *urp*
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
11,429
MBTI Type
eNFJ
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Sarah, I found your post well thought out and insightful. I hope you come back at some point. I agree that the type generalizations are basically nonsense. It is unfortunate that people like you, Pink, and others have faced the negativity as you have. I have always enjoyed your posts. People really do try to make the world simpler through prejudicial thinking. I doubt that will change completely, but it does help to have some people around willing to challenge ideas that result from intellectual laziness and a lack of critical thought as is seen in prejudicial typism. I think it might be worse for the people who embrace that approach because it results in more disappointment and pessimism. When faced with the negativity, it can help to realize there are also insightful posts and interesting people to know here, including some of the negative people. I suppose most people have some types of prejudice, so in a way seeing it expressed from others can help us examine our own flawed thinking.

*nibbles on Toonia with some peach jam*
 
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