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  1. #41
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    ...Sarah, I will say that thick skin and ignoring the ignant fools who perpetuate bullshit is the best way to enjoy your forum experience. If you must leave, then you must leave, but I would love to see you pop in every now and again. I've never found your posts oversensitive or overreactive even when people have tried to make you feel as if you're overreacting when crusading against a real bias.
    QFT.

    I wouldn't hold anyone against their will, but it's sort of a bummer to lose a POV here that isn't represented as well to begin with. Rather than being an object of criticism, Sarah, you really do just have a voice that is unique and thus has a special place in the discussion, and once you go, pretty much the voices you dislike will just have a stronger say... then again, it's not like you are getting a paycheck to post.

    (I guess it does depend on why people come here and what they are looking to get out of things long-term. I know I have had to thicken up my skin and change my expectations as well, in order to continue to be able to contribute effectively.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Yeah right, like proteanmix is ENFJ!
    Oh, just kiss and get it over with.
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  2. #42
    Badoom~ Skyward's Avatar
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    I'm sorry.

    What I am trying to say is that it's ME who is at fault. For both not understanding SPs and for sounding like a dumbass in this post.
    Last edited by Skyward; 01-08-2009 at 08:13 PM. Reason: Horribly worded.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyward View Post


    If you're not back, I'll miss you, Sarah. You're a lot of the reason I have so much patience with SPs. You're highly intelligent and it is in an SP way so it helps me understand how SPs generally think on some level.

    I am definitely struggling with type stereotype/bias. I think mine grew out from not knowing a person of each type to compare things to. Besides, every type has there problems. Some just have high-profile, more-hated problems. EFJ controlling, SP lackadaisy/impulsiveness, NF sensitivity (Or wimpiness if youre a soulless T ).

    Anyways. If you don't come back I hope you're somewhere better.

    ( Not like its too hard to find a better place, forums can get nasty! )
    You needed sarah to have patience with SPs? Also we think on some level? Thanks but I'm well aware that I think, FYI on many levels.

    Sensitivity is the worst you could come up with for NFs of course... they do no wrong.

    You call this a sensitive post? It's just full of more pathetic presumptions about type.

  4. #44
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyward View Post


    If you're not back, I'll miss you, Sarah. You're a lot of the reason I have so much patience with SPs. You're highly intelligent and it is in an SP way so it helps me understand how SPs generally think on some level.

    I am definitely struggling with type stereotype/bias. I think mine grew out from not knowing a person of each type to compare things to. Besides, every type has there problems. Some just have high-profile, more-hated problems. EFJ controlling, SP lackadaisy/impulsiveness, NF sensitivity (Or wimpiness if youre a soulless T ).

    Anyways. If you don't come back I hope you're somewhere better.

    ( Not like its too hard to find a better place, forums can get nasty! )
    Wow, backhanded compliment. Well done...

  5. #45
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyward View Post


    If you're not back, I'll miss you, Sarah. You're a lot of the reason I have so much patience with SPs. You're highly intelligent and it is in an SP way so it helps me understand how SPs generally think on some level.

    I am definitely struggling with type stereotype/bias. I think mine grew out from not knowing a person of each type to compare things to. Besides, every type has there problems. Some just have high-profile, more-hated problems. EFJ controlling, SP lackadaisy/impulsiveness, NF sensitivity (Or wimpiness if youre a soulless T ).

    Anyways. If you don't come back I hope you're somewhere better.

    ( Not like its too hard to find a better place, forums can get nasty! )
    Fail.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #46
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    I passionately believe that the only positive way of using type is to see it as a tool that informs you as to the best way to ask the right kinds of questions, and also frame people's responses in a positive way. It also seems obvious that most of what's labeled as type-related really isn't. Your ex-boyfriends' messy habits, your bosses lack of thoughtfulness, your best friends' flightiness, your mother's bossiness, etc., is probably related more to what they grew up with and what's going on in their individual lives, not their "type code".
    Indeed, most of the things are interconnected like a giant wireframe of an completly asymmetrical net.

    I suspect what most people want to find is closure.

    Sad, you are leaving, but I did get your point.
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  7. #47
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Default because I owe you all a gracious response...

    I logged in in order to respond to a couple of PMs I received, and saw that there were 5 pages of responses to my thread, many very thoughtful. Thank you all for the kind words -- I think I owe the people who made them a gracious response

    This actually isnt just the aftermath of an angry outburst. I should probably explain that Ive been discussing type on online discussion forums for about 5 years now, mostly on another list, and that this feeling of enough is enough is a cumulative effect of feeling tired of seeing the same old issues cropping up over and over. Five years is a long time.

    Its also not about me defending Ss. I've spent the last 5 years trying to bring balance and fairness to discussions about all 16 types. I can recall objecting to the INTJ type being portrayed by one vicious poster on another list as being pretty much evil incarnate, only to be told that my reasonable defense of that type was misguided and that I was wasting my time. It seemed to me at the time that more people wanted to just cheer on the poster of the venom rather than think about ways to reframe their anger into something they could work with and turn into something good. These sorts of conversations can really wear on a person's nerves.

    When I first discovered type, I used it as a weapon myself, primarily against my NF mother. I felt validated when I read some of the things that Keirsey and Berens wrote about the SP temperament, but along with feelings of understanding that there isn't anything "wrong with me, I also felt this surge of resentment against my NF mother for not properly understanding me, and for not being able to read my mind and heart, etc.., and for squelching what I thought were natural, wholesome feelings and desires. One Saturday, I spent half a day typing a big long diatribe (for my eyes only, not to publish anywhere) listing all the things my mom had done wrong as a parent. After a while, I broke down and cried. I know firsthand that it can be cathartic to write out your complaints about people who never really understood you. But do I honestly think Id do better as a parent? Heck, no. In fact, even if I had kids and they all turned out to be a bunch of ISFPs who shared all my interests and passions, I would still undoubtedly make lots of mistakes. The problem with doing your cathartic exercises on a public forum is that it really does feel painful and/or confusing for the people reading it who might otherwise identify in some way with the type of people you say you cant stand, or who have identified with that type or that behavior and now want to UNidentify with it because its being presented as being so awful. (by the way, in recent years my mother and I have a much closer relationship than we've ever had, and I actually value the very things I used to be annoyed by before. )

    Yes, its nice to get confirmation from others that youre good and fine and perfect just as you are, especially if youve been the recipient of emotional abuse regarding your type preferences, and that if others didnt understand you, its not your fault. But If you want to rant about all XXXXs because your older sister might be one and you and she always hated each other, be aware that everyone reading it is going to apply your definitions and descriptions to their understanding of what it means to be an XXXX, which means if most of whats said is negative, who is going to want to identify with that type, or notice type XXXX preferences in people who arent as bad as you claim they all are? I could be wrong, but I think this is the main reason people mistype themselves and others they dont identify with some aspect of a description out there, and the more numerous the negative comments, the less anyone wants to identify with it, and the less anyone wants to discover the value in people who express traits that are deemed difficult or undesirable.

    It seems to me that all people are whole, not just some types of people. All types of people possess every human trait, even those they havent spent much time consciously accessing. All human beings possess an imagination and access it sometimes. All human beings can see the big picture sometimes. All human beings care about details sometimes. All human beings are careless about some things. All human beings are bossy sometimes. And so on. Sure, you can choose to disown certain traits that dont seem worthwhile to you, but thats only going to make you less tolerant and more judgmental of anyone who enjoys accessing them in a healthy way (and if theres been any emotional abuse as a result, the cycle of it continues). Im a big believer in the concept of the shadow side, meaning that the very things we despise most about others are also a part of who we are, either conscious or unconscious, and that our work lies in accepting that we have these very traits we despise and that we need to choose healthy ways of expressing them, so that we no longer feel that the traits are bad in and of themselves, or that others are always the problem. As far as that relates to type, I think that all people express all 8 cognitive processes with various degrees of competence, and that the behavior we see in others that results from developed use of the cognitive processes in our shadow are most likely traits we need to find some way of expressing in ourselves rather than condemning in others.

    One of the reasons my husband hates typing people or categorizing people in any way is because, as a special ed. teacher, hes seen the downside of what happens to peoples self esteem as a result of negative labeling. When people are identified with disorders or categories rather than respected as being whole human beings, or when they are called insulting names such as stupid or retard, it affects the way they treat both themselves and others. It also affects what they feel they are able to accomplish snap at a person for being stupid or bossy or unable to see the big picture enough times and they may start to think theres more entertainment value in proving you right rather than doing the difficult and work of trying to change your attitude about them (not to mention that some people take a perverse pleasure in needing to be right in their negative assessment of others, and wont look at any evidence that points otherwise than what they want to believe). The same applies to how we use type, and I guess Ive become really sensitive to that over the years, and this is why I cant just turn a blind eye to unfairness whenever I see it. And I cant tune it out either.

    Sure, I could spend more years of my life trying my best to bring some balance and common sense to online discussions about type. But this isnt my job, nor am I even employed in a field related to psychological type. I already have a full time professional job that I enjoy and believe is worthwhile, and that I dont really think Im doing anyone a favor in splitting my concentration between what goes on at work and my feelings about what I read when I casually tune into typologycentral (I generally read it when Im not terribly busy at the reference desk). When I feel annoyed, upset or angry by whats written here, I think my emotional state affects my interactions with patrons, and its really not fair to them and also not fair to my employers and the institution I work for in general. Ultimately, Im not capable of ignoring the type bias and the negative rants any more than I could ignore the sound of someone using a chainsaw fifty feet away from me. Its something I feel compelled to respond to, whether or not it would actually do me or the other person any good. So thats why I finally decided a couple of days ago that checking out the message board is really eating away at my time. I still plan to keep my account here and I really do welcome talking about type via PM with people, so drop me a line anytime you want to talk. The only thing Im doing is saying no to spending my time in discussions otherwise.

    Thanks for listening.

  8. #48
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Why couldn't you just limit yourself to posting/reading posts on the weekends? That way it wouldn't impact your work performance.

    Anyway, I really like all of what you said about type above. You actually articulated things I had thought about before regarding it, but had never been able to put forth in a universal sense. I had been able to apply them to specific situations semi-unconsciously, but never figured out what they "were" in a larger sense well enough to describe them the way you just did.

  9. #49
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    I always enjoyed reading your posts, and they made perfectly good sense to me. And that's important - they actually made sense. A lot of people on here go way too far in terms of typing, and making inaccurate correlations between behavior and type, without making the connection that lots of other types could have the same behavior. Also, individual variation within type. Finally, the fact that there's a whole lot to psychology that goes way beyond type.

    Agree 100% with you here -

    Quote Originally Posted by sarah
    It also seems obvious that most of what's labeled as type-related really isn't. Your ex-boyfriends' messy habits, your bosses lack of thoughtfulness, your best friends' flightiness, your mother's bossiness, etc., is probably related more to what they grew up with and what's going on in their individual lives, not their "type code". I suspect most of what people like to believe is type-related is actually just the result of individuals we know having lived at a certain time, in a certain place, under certain circumstances, and that if type had anything to do with the expression of these behavior traits, it influenced the motives behind the expression of them, not the behavior itself. Yes, I believe there are observable patterns of behavior and that this is to some degree related to type (as Keirsey would say), but patterns that relate to temperament are not the same thing as patterns of contextual behavior. It seems to me that the more you actually learn and understand about type, the less you see it as being about labeling contextual behavior, and the more you begin to understand what's meant by the core needs and values that drive people
    And, yeah. I don't personally find much use for mbti anymore, beyond very broad categorizations. It hasn't really assisted me in understanding myself any better (actually it's probably hindered more than helped), nor do I ever really use it with dealing with people in real life. I deal with people by approaching them as individuals, and when you get to the root of it, people all have needs, desires, motivations, and values. It's just a matter of learning what those are for each person. I think mbti is most useful at its basic principle -- just that everyone processes things differently and approaches the world in a different way. With that recognition then comes the knowledge that your way is not the *only* way, or the best way (and not everyone gets to that point ;-). That's the bottom line. Just recognizing that not everyone is going to react, prioritize, process, think, or value in the same way that you do. That's pretty much it.
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  10. #50
    Senior Member Sunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Sarah, between being a possible ESFJ (THE MOST HATED TYPE ON THE FORUM) or an ENFJ (THE FOURTH MOST HATED TYPE ON THE FORUM) I will say that thick skin and ignoring the ignant fools who perpetuate bullshit is the best way to enjoy your forum experience. If you must leave, then you must leave, but I would love to see you pop in every now and again. I've never found your posts oversensitive or overreactive even when people have tried to make you feel as if you're overreacting when crusading against a real bias.

    And also I always think to myself, "who are the people who post here?" Like literally whenever I read the garbage posts and theories people pass around like cheap liquor I just keep that thought in my head about who such and such could really be behind the screen to need to say the BS they say to make themselves feel better. And then it just makes me more sad for them than actually mad at them, ya know?

    Till we meet again.
    .

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