[ESTP] How do you deal with ESTPs?

[Winz]

I don't know what all the fuss is about crappy ESTPs... The ones that I know are actually really likable, fun, funny, charming, FAIR people. Maybe a little pushy sometimes, but that's just their "selling" thing happening. Certainly not controlling. Definitely not needy.

If the ESTPs in question really are ESTPs, then they're probably unhealthy ones.

Just saying...

 

[substitute]

Like Titus Pullo... I find them both scary and sexy at the same time. Bulldozers... with the morality of pirates, and surprisingly canny; nobody I'd rather have at my back, on my side.

when I said this earlier, I was thinking there was something else, but I wasn't sure how to express it. The idea that, whilst I love having them on my side, it can seem difficult to achieve it. From what I can tell, there is no way to persuade an ESTP to fix his loyalties to you. You just have to be yourself, and if the ESTP likes you, if they respect you, then they'll be loyal and formidable friends. If they don't, they'll probably just ignore you until/unless you piss them off, then you'll be sorry. If they like and respect you and you piss them off, they'll be gracious enough to give you a chance to explain and if it's good, they won't kill you lol

Curiously (and this is all based on my experiences with a particular ESTP and might not be generally representative), it seems that once you've earned their respect, the more "misunderstandings" you solve with the ESTP (and it seems again I have to labour the point that it's unlikely you'll be able to, or get the chance to, resolve anything unless you've already earned their loyalty), the more loyal they become. It's like the best friendship for them is one that comes through adversity.

They are deceptively complex people, I think, and most of all I've found you just have to respect, above all, their freedom, to do and decide and think what they like. They can smell someone trying to manipulate, persuade or control them from a mile off and will never fall for it and even go the other way just on principle. Like I say, it seems just being yourself, and hoping that's enough, is your best bet.

 

[Lightyear]

Reading through this thread and the type description ESTPs sound like interesting, fun characters but also like a bit too much work in the longterm. I am not sure I could deal with someone on a regular basis who is very confrontational and attention-seeking.

 

[substitute]

Reading through this thread and the type description ESTPs sound like interesting, fun characters but also like a bit too much work in the longterm. I am not sure I could deal with someone on a regular basis who is very confrontational and attention-seeking.

That's kinda weird to me, cos see, I find my ESTP quite low maintenance, whilst every INFJ I've known has felt to me like impossibly high maintenance. That is, ones I've known personally - there are some I've only known online that I've had no issues with, but then I can't know whether or not I would if we knew each other IRL.

I've actually found that with my ESTP, I got him a bit wrong to start with. I thought whenever he appeared confrontational, he was spoiling for a fight. In fact, he could go either way any time, and just wants something true. He can tell, his Se is so acute, if you lie to him or whatever, it's like he has ESP (no pun intended lol), seems always far more accurate at summing up how I feel than any supposedly empathic NF ever has. So I've just learned not to bullshit him, and I really respect that - so many people seem to sort of require you to bullshit them, you know? They don't want to hear the truth, even if they know it's a lie they'd rather you were diplomatic than direct, but not the ESTP. I find it refreshing, now I've learned that when he asks a question in a seemingly confrontational way, all I have to do is remain calm and give an honest answer, and he respects that and calms down almost magically. Knowing that now, it doesn't "scare" me or intimidate me any more when he gets bolshy, and I find it almost endearing sometimes, old hot-head Mike

 

[alcea rosea]

While an ESTP likes to lead they don't dominate... meaning as soon as someone isn't having fun or isn't comfortable we are never going to be all like "too bad, do what we say"... we are indifferent to people following us really, yet people just seem to do it anyway (some people like to follow)

I can agree with this.

 

[Unique]

Reading through this thread and the type description ESTPs sound like interesting, fun characters but also like a bit too much work in the longterm. I am not sure I could deal with someone on a regular basis who is very confrontational and attention-seeking.

This is somewhat amusing coming from an INFJ

I actually lol'ed IRL about the attention seeking part

Obviously you failed to read the part about us being a rather indifferent type actually keirsey says...

"Charming, confident, and popular, Promoters delight their friends and investors with their endless supply of stories and jokes. At the same time, these smooth operators are usually something of a mystery to others. While they live in the moment and lend excitement - and unpredictability - to all their relationships, they rarely let anyone get really close to them. They have a low tolerance for authority and commitment, and are likely to leave situations where they are expected to toe the mark, or where they must play second fiddle. Promoters understand well the maxim, "He who travels fastest, travels alone," although they are not likely to be lonely for long, since their boldness and sense of adventure tends to make them highly attractive to many other people."

when I said this earlier, I was thinking there was something else, but I wasn't sure how to express it. The idea that, whilst I love having them on my side, it can seem difficult to achieve it. From what I can tell, there is no way to persuade an ESTP to fix his loyalties to you. You just have to be yourself, and if the ESTP likes you, if they respect you, then they'll be loyal and formidable friends. If they don't, they'll probably just ignore you until/unless you piss them off, then you'll be sorry. If they like and respect you and you piss them off, they'll be gracious enough to give you a chance to explain and if it's good, they won't kill you lol

Curiously (and this is all based on my experiences with a particular ESTP and might not be generally representative), it seems that once you've earned their respect, the more "misunderstandings" you solve with the ESTP (and it seems again I have to labour the point that it's unlikely you'll be able to, or get the chance to, resolve anything unless you've already earned their loyalty), the more loyal they become. It's like the best friendship for them is one that comes through adversity.

They are deceptively complex people, I think, and most of all I've found you just have to respect, above all, their freedom, to do and decide and think what they like. They can smell someone trying to manipulate, persuade or control them from a mile off and will never fall for it and even go the other way just on principle. Like I say, it seems just being yourself, and hoping that's enough, is your best bet.

Now thats more like it... to an SP type it is somewhat refreshing when someone is upfront and honest regardless of how bad things are however I disagree with the adversity friends bit I think you're mate is one of those sickos that likes pain and stuff kidding

 

[Unique]

That's kinda weird to me, cos see, I find my ESTP quite low maintenance, whilst every INFJ I've known has felt to me like impossibly high maintenance. That is, ones I've known personally - there are some I've only known online that I've had no issues with, but then I can't know whether or not I would if we knew each other IRL.

I've actually found that with my ESTP, I got him a bit wrong to start with. I thought whenever he appeared confrontational, he was spoiling for a fight. In fact, he could go either way any time, and just wants something true. He can tell, his Se is so acute, if you lie to him or whatever, it's like he has ESP (no pun intended lol), seems always far more accurate at summing up how I feel than any supposedly empathic NF ever has. So I've just learned not to bullshit him, and I really respect that - so many people seem to sort of require you to bullshit them, you know? They don't want to hear the truth, even if they know it's a lie they'd rather you were diplomatic than direct, but not the ESTP. I find it refreshing, now I've learned that when he asks a question in a seemingly confrontational way, all I have to do is remain calm and give an honest answer, and he respects that and calms down almost magically. Knowing that now, it doesn't "scare" me or intimidate me any more when he gets bolshy, and I find it almost endearing sometimes, old hot-head Mike

ZOMG THIS 1000% YES!

I would not personally consider myself a hot head though I'm too chill lol

The part about being forced socially to BS most people is so true and the difference with the ESTP is we want the truth!

I mean this is exactly the kind of interaction I wish that everyone gets with us, seeing us as a breath of fresh air... someone that wont judge you for whatever you do who will be completely indifferent to it, will have his or her own morals but not feel the need to convert you to their cause

Someone that will give you reasonable logical advice in a time of need rather than "oh darling thats terrible... =("

Someone REFRESHING

new favorite word lol

 

[substitute]

however I disagree with the adversity friends bit I think you're mate is one of those sickos that likes pain and stuff kidding

Yeah I had trouble finding the right words for that idea, but what I mean is that it seems like the more times he suspects me or disbelieves me and then finds out I was right/telling the truth, the more he trusts me and listens to me in future. With a lot of other people, you know, I can have known them for years and never lied to them and usually been right on certain things, you know, certain areas of life that I know a lot about, and yet they still dismiss and disregard my advice every time, like they just never learn. The difference with the ESTP is that he did this to start with, but after a while he learned what things I know, and to trust my advice on those things.

I dunno if you saw the series Rome, but I do think Titus Pullo in that is a perfect example of an ESTP, and his friendship with Vorenus is similar to mine with my ESTP (even though I think Vorenus is an INTJ). They start off hating each other, but after a while Vorenus earns Pullo's trust and as they each learn which things the other one is just better at, they accept that and learn to lean on and rely on each other.

This kind of interdependent mutual friendship is something I really value, and it's the total opposite of the way I've felt with INFJ's - with them, I always feel like no matter how much I prove myself, I'm still never up to their standards and they still don't trust me or listen to me.

 

["?"]

From what I can tell, there is no way to persuade an ESTP to fix his loyalties to you. You just have to be yourself, and if the ESTP likes you, if they respect you, then they'll be loyal and formidable friends. If they don't, they'll probably just ignore you until/unless you piss them off, then you'll be sorry. If they like and respect you and you piss them off, they'll be gracious enough to give you a chance to explain and if it's good, they won't kill you lol
Curiously (and this is all based on my experiences with a particular ESTP and might not be generally representative), it seems that once you've earned their respect, the more "misunderstandings" you solve with the ESTP (and it seems again I have to labour the point that it's unlikely you'll be able to, or get the chance to, resolve anything unless you've already earned their loyalty), the more loyal they become. It's like the best friendship for them is one that comes through adversity.

Very enlightening piece of writing Sub. Based on what I have read about ESTP types, they must respect you to want to be around you, otherwise as you say they disregard you. Otherwise they are loyal to a fault. This excerpt from personalitypage.com may shed some light:

Many ESTPs have lifelong friends, because although they take life day by day, they feel tremendous loyal and "brotherhood" towards their peers. They're highly valued by their friends for their fun-loving natures and loyalty.

And from what ESTPs say about themselves at bestfittype.com,

I don’t have a whole lot of really deep friendships, but yet I like to think people would describe me as dedicated, determined, and loyal. I sometimes have difficulty concealing what I am thinking or feeling. I don’t like the pressure of having to say no. I can be somewhat cool but a genuine friend as a personal relationship evolves. Trustworthiness in personal relationships is very important, that we can disagree and still be friends, and if our backs were ever to the wall, I’m there and I would expect the same. If I don’t respect someone, I avoid them. If I can find another way to do business I will. I surround myself with people that I feel comfortable with, but they’re totally my selection.

They are deceptively complex people, I think, and most of all I've found you just have to respect, above all, their freedom, to do and decide and think what they like. They can smell someone trying to manipulate, persuade or control them from a mile off and will never fall for it and even go the other way just on principle. Like I say, it seems just being yourself, and hoping that's enough, is your best bet.

Again very accurate from all I know about that type. Yet again, I think that those who claim ESTPs not to be controlling should read Berens interaction styles booklet. I don’t think that any of the “In Charge” types consider themselves controlling or having to be the leader, however the proof is in the pudding on how people react to you. In fact ESTPs who have confirmed their types admit that they like being in control. Hmmm….. a thought came to me about myself.

 

["?"]

Reading through this thread and the type description ESTPs sound like interesting, fun characters but also like a bit too much work in the longterm. I am not sure I could deal with someone on a regular basis who is very confrontational and attention-seeking.

I don't think that ESTPs are attention seekers. In fact they usually prefer independence and enjoy working autonomously. I again think that this type gets a bad rap and most who have confirmed their type as ESTP do not see themselves the way portrayed by Keirsey and others. In fact Myers-Briggs does not seem them this way as well, calling the ESP types the most realistic types. Here are a few excerpts from the Promoter Executor type at bestfittype.com:

The most important thing in relationships is absolute autonomy and independence. I admit I like to be in control and yet I’m kind of easygoing in that I just want freedom. Freedom to me is leave me alone, let me do it. Anything that constrains me around that I don’t like and kind of rebel against. I don’t like to be told what to do or what to think. And although I know it’s good for me, I don’t like feedback either. It takes a lot to rattle me, and even then I just go on. I tend not to dwell on things, but sometimes I have a tendency to imagine worst-case scenarios, especially when I am stressed.

 

[substitute]

To use geek speak, ESTP's are like the definition of AD&D "chaotic" alignment - usually chaotic good

 

[heart]

Are you sure this friend is not ESTJ? Desire to control you and constantly tell you what's best for you sounds awfully J to me.

Maybe the ESTP in question is just wanting his own way, as ThatGirl suggested, being needy but not giving back, maybe it comes accross to others as desire to manipulate but for the ESTP is not desire to manipulate for it's own sake but just living to have needs met.

I always think the fictional character Scarlett O'Hara example of unhealthy ESTP using Fe as a tool to get what she wants in the moment and next moment bored and onto something else.

 

[Nonsensical]

I roll up my sleeves and show them my Ne. Gets 'em every time, and they won't ever come back for more.

 

[Unique]

Interesting that respect has come up so much as I've talked about trust with real life friends before and I always say I work with respect. Amount of respect = amount of trust you get from me.

 

[Unique]

I don't know what all the fuss is about crappy ESTPs... The ones that I know are actually really likable, fun, funny, charming, FAIR people. Maybe a little pushy sometimes, but that's just their "selling" thing happening. Certainly not controlling. Definitely not needy.

If the ESTPs in question really are ESTPs, then they're probably unhealthy ones.

Just saying...

You pretty much said it all, except we aren't crappy
I got what you mean though

I think its pretty ridiculous too... all this stuff about a type that at the end of the day is arguably the EASIEST type to get along with

Seriously if you can't get along with an ESTP you may as well just give up hahaha, you don't stand a chance with some of the other types lol

Also ESTPs are uncanny at blending into just about every situation there is... LAN party one night, pounding music the next, its great

 

[substitute]

I get the whole being accused of pushiness thing when it's actually a misunderstanding, I'm just trying to give someone all the info they need to make up their mind, but they often see it (particularly F's) as me "recommending" it and that I'd be offended if they didn't go with my suggestion etc, so they sort of talk themselves, in a way, into feeling pressured when I don't mean any pressure at all, and I've never had any problem with anyone saying "no thanks, I think I've already got one I'd rather go with" or "thanks for the info, I'll ponder it over and get back to you" or "thanks for the info, I pondered it over and decided to go with something else".

I think this is something that's common, to a greater or lesser extent, to most ExxP's. I know even my ENFP brother gets it too. Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with people and why they can't just say things - you know, like people are dithering around wondering where to go for dinner, nobody's suggesting any place and nothing's happening, yet everyone's clearly hungry and impatient so I'll pull some restaurant name out of a hat as it were, just to get things moving, and say you know, why not go there, it's reasonably priced, good enough food, it's nearby and plenty of room etc, and everyone just goes "yeah alright we'll do that". Then when we're sitting at the table eating, people will start moaning about it and THEN they start talking about other places they might rather have gone to, and blame me for the fact that we're here, saying "well you MADE us go here" lol When all I was doing was suggesting someplace and giving the pros and cons, the idea was for them to suggest something back and we could all have a quick brainstorm and reach a consensus!!



But, about being the "easiest type to get along with", I'm not sure I'd back that up. I mean, not that I'm saying ESTP's aren't easy to get along with for me, but really who you find easy to get along with is totally subjective and different from one person to the next innit, it all depends what you're starting at. Like learning a language, there's no such thing as a language that's harder to learn or easier to learn, period - it all depends what your native language is - it'll always be easier to learn one similar to it and harder to learn one that's very different.

 

[Dali]

I think its pretty ridiculous too... all this stuff about a type that at the end of the day is arguably the EASIEST type to get along with

B.S.Really.

 

[StephMC]

Oy... ESTPs are easy for most people to get along with at first, and in light-hearted moments... but they can be pretty taxing once they are resolute about something. I've been best friends with an ESTP since we were about 15, and when she's in her oppositional Si function, I just want to strangle her! This says it best: "They can become stubborn about their perceptions of how things once were and fixed on how that recollection links to the present."

Basically, she met me when I was an undeveloped ISTP... just a kid always almost always in my Ti function. About a decade later, she still brings up stubborn moments I've had in the past and has a hard time accepting that I've developed into a more balanced person. Example: "Oh, come on Steph... you can't have a roommate... remember like 6 years ago when we were on that trip with everyone and you got moody after a week?"

Another example is when me, my family and friends all first took the MBTI test (we just kinda passed it around and discussed through e-mail)... she goes: "Okay guys, answer HONESTLY! Don't make me have to do it for y'all." ... She tested out as an ENFP. Later I suggested she was actually an ESTP, and everyone, including herself, agreed (Except when it came to the negative points of the ESTP... she insisted those were my weaknesses not hers... although everyone agrees I am definitely introverted, not extroverted)

Phew.. I love her to death, but she can be a little close-minded sometimes... And for me, it's really frustrating when she can only seem to comment on what she perceives as my weaknesses and can never really say all that many positive things. As an ISTP, I don't really need a whole lot of praise, but a lot of negativity can leave me disoriented

 

[Unique]

lol an ESTP using Si?

I think your sister needs to either take that test again or start using the obviously amazing Se

Jungian functional preference ordering ESTP:

Dominant: Extraverted Sensing
Auxiliary: Introverted Thinking
Tertiary: Extraverted Feeling
Inferior: Introverted Intuition

 

[StephMC]

lol an ESTP using Si?

I think your sister needs to either take that test again or start using the obviously amazing Se

Jungian functional preference ordering ESTP:

Dominant: Extraverted Sensing
Auxiliary: Introverted Thinking
Tertiary: Extraverted Feeling
Inferior: Introverted Intuition

No, no.. Sorry, I didn't explain that well. Not in the first four. This is something I got from cognitiveprocesses.com. She uses it in her "opposing function"... her 5th function. So whenever she's in this opposing function (definition here), this is how she becomes when she's argumentative or stubborn... does that make a little more sense? I don't know if this is all ESTPs or just her or whether she's not completely balanced yet... but this is definitely how she relates to me.

But that quote I said in the previous post was from a book describing an ESTP in the 5th function, called "Understanding yourself and others: an introduction to the personality type code." Google books has some of it on there, and it's really interesting to check out