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  1. #81
    Member Winz's Avatar
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    I don't know what all the fuss is about crappy ESTPs... The ones that I know are actually really likable, fun, funny, charming, FAIR people. Maybe a little pushy sometimes, but that's just their "selling" thing happening. Certainly not controlling. Definitely not needy.

    If the ESTPs in question really are ESTPs, then they're probably unhealthy ones.

    Just saying...

  2. #82
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Like Titus Pullo... I find them both scary and sexy at the same time. Bulldozers... with the morality of pirates, and surprisingly canny; nobody I'd rather have at my back, on my side.
    when I said this earlier, I was thinking there was something else, but I wasn't sure how to express it. The idea that, whilst I love having them on my side, it can seem difficult to achieve it. From what I can tell, there is no way to persuade an ESTP to fix his loyalties to you. You just have to be yourself, and if the ESTP likes you, if they respect you, then they'll be loyal and formidable friends. If they don't, they'll probably just ignore you until/unless you piss them off, then you'll be sorry. If they like and respect you and you piss them off, they'll be gracious enough to give you a chance to explain and if it's good, they won't kill you lol

    Curiously (and this is all based on my experiences with a particular ESTP and might not be generally representative), it seems that once you've earned their respect, the more "misunderstandings" you solve with the ESTP (and it seems again I have to labour the point that it's unlikely you'll be able to, or get the chance to, resolve anything unless you've already earned their loyalty), the more loyal they become. It's like the best friendship for them is one that comes through adversity.

    They are deceptively complex people, I think, and most of all I've found you just have to respect, above all, their freedom, to do and decide and think what they like. They can smell someone trying to manipulate, persuade or control them from a mile off and will never fall for it and even go the other way just on principle. Like I say, it seems just being yourself, and hoping that's enough, is your best bet.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  3. #83
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Reading through this thread and the type description ESTPs sound like interesting, fun characters but also like a bit too much work in the longterm. I am not sure I could deal with someone on a regular basis who is very confrontational and attention-seeking.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    Reading through this thread and the type description ESTPs sound like interesting, fun characters but also like a bit too much work in the longterm. I am not sure I could deal with someone on a regular basis who is very confrontational and attention-seeking.
    That's kinda weird to me, cos see, I find my ESTP quite low maintenance, whilst every INFJ I've known has felt to me like impossibly high maintenance. That is, ones I've known personally - there are some I've only known online that I've had no issues with, but then I can't know whether or not I would if we knew each other IRL.

    I've actually found that with my ESTP, I got him a bit wrong to start with. I thought whenever he appeared confrontational, he was spoiling for a fight. In fact, he could go either way any time, and just wants something true. He can tell, his Se is so acute, if you lie to him or whatever, it's like he has ESP (no pun intended lol), seems always far more accurate at summing up how I feel than any supposedly empathic NF ever has. So I've just learned not to bullshit him, and I really respect that - so many people seem to sort of require you to bullshit them, you know? They don't want to hear the truth, even if they know it's a lie they'd rather you were diplomatic than direct, but not the ESTP. I find it refreshing, now I've learned that when he asks a question in a seemingly confrontational way, all I have to do is remain calm and give an honest answer, and he respects that and calms down almost magically. Knowing that now, it doesn't "scare" me or intimidate me any more when he gets bolshy, and I find it almost endearing sometimes, old hot-head Mike
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
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  5. #85
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    While an ESTP likes to lead they don't dominate... meaning as soon as someone isn't having fun or isn't comfortable we are never going to be all like "too bad, do what we say"... we are indifferent to people following us really, yet people just seem to do it anyway (some people like to follow)
    I can agree with this.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    Reading through this thread and the type description ESTPs sound like interesting, fun characters but also like a bit too much work in the longterm. I am not sure I could deal with someone on a regular basis who is very confrontational and attention-seeking.
    This is somewhat amusing coming from an INFJ

    I actually lol'ed IRL about the attention seeking part

    Obviously you failed to read the part about us being a rather indifferent type actually keirsey says...

    "Charming, confident, and popular, Promoters delight their friends and investors with their endless supply of stories and jokes. At the same time, these smooth operators are usually something of a mystery to others. While they live in the moment and lend excitement - and unpredictability - to all their relationships, they rarely let anyone get really close to them. They have a low tolerance for authority and commitment, and are likely to leave situations where they are expected to toe the mark, or where they must play second fiddle. Promoters understand well the maxim, "He who travels fastest, travels alone," although they are not likely to be lonely for long, since their boldness and sense of adventure tends to make them highly attractive to many other people."

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    when I said this earlier, I was thinking there was something else, but I wasn't sure how to express it. The idea that, whilst I love having them on my side, it can seem difficult to achieve it. From what I can tell, there is no way to persuade an ESTP to fix his loyalties to you. You just have to be yourself, and if the ESTP likes you, if they respect you, then they'll be loyal and formidable friends. If they don't, they'll probably just ignore you until/unless you piss them off, then you'll be sorry. If they like and respect you and you piss them off, they'll be gracious enough to give you a chance to explain and if it's good, they won't kill you lol

    Curiously (and this is all based on my experiences with a particular ESTP and might not be generally representative), it seems that once you've earned their respect, the more "misunderstandings" you solve with the ESTP (and it seems again I have to labour the point that it's unlikely you'll be able to, or get the chance to, resolve anything unless you've already earned their loyalty), the more loyal they become. It's like the best friendship for them is one that comes through adversity.

    They are deceptively complex people, I think, and most of all I've found you just have to respect, above all, their freedom, to do and decide and think what they like. They can smell someone trying to manipulate, persuade or control them from a mile off and will never fall for it and even go the other way just on principle. Like I say, it seems just being yourself, and hoping that's enough, is your best bet.
    Now thats more like it... to an SP type it is somewhat refreshing when someone is upfront and honest regardless of how bad things are however I disagree with the adversity friends bit I think you're mate is one of those sickos that likes pain and stuff :P kidding

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    That's kinda weird to me, cos see, I find my ESTP quite low maintenance, whilst every INFJ I've known has felt to me like impossibly high maintenance. That is, ones I've known personally - there are some I've only known online that I've had no issues with, but then I can't know whether or not I would if we knew each other IRL.

    I've actually found that with my ESTP, I got him a bit wrong to start with. I thought whenever he appeared confrontational, he was spoiling for a fight. In fact, he could go either way any time, and just wants something true. He can tell, his Se is so acute, if you lie to him or whatever, it's like he has ESP (no pun intended lol), seems always far more accurate at summing up how I feel than any supposedly empathic NF ever has. So I've just learned not to bullshit him, and I really respect that - so many people seem to sort of require you to bullshit them, you know? They don't want to hear the truth, even if they know it's a lie they'd rather you were diplomatic than direct, but not the ESTP. I find it refreshing, now I've learned that when he asks a question in a seemingly confrontational way, all I have to do is remain calm and give an honest answer, and he respects that and calms down almost magically. Knowing that now, it doesn't "scare" me or intimidate me any more when he gets bolshy, and I find it almost endearing sometimes, old hot-head Mike
    ZOMG THIS 1000% YES!

    I would not personally consider myself a hot head though I'm too chill lol

    The part about being forced socially to BS most people is so true and the difference with the ESTP is we want the truth!

    I mean this is exactly the kind of interaction I wish that everyone gets with us, seeing us as a breath of fresh air... someone that wont judge you for whatever you do who will be completely indifferent to it, will have his or her own morals but not feel the need to convert you to their cause

    Someone that will give you reasonable logical advice in a time of need rather than "oh darling thats terrible... =("

    Someone REFRESHING

    new favorite word lol

  8. #88
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    however I disagree with the adversity friends bit I think you're mate is one of those sickos that likes pain and stuff :P kidding
    Yeah I had trouble finding the right words for that idea, but what I mean is that it seems like the more times he suspects me or disbelieves me and then finds out I was right/telling the truth, the more he trusts me and listens to me in future. With a lot of other people, you know, I can have known them for years and never lied to them and usually been right on certain things, you know, certain areas of life that I know a lot about, and yet they still dismiss and disregard my advice every time, like they just never learn. The difference with the ESTP is that he did this to start with, but after a while he learned what things I know, and to trust my advice on those things.

    I dunno if you saw the series Rome, but I do think Titus Pullo in that is a perfect example of an ESTP, and his friendship with Vorenus is similar to mine with my ESTP (even though I think Vorenus is an INTJ). They start off hating each other, but after a while Vorenus earns Pullo's trust and as they each learn which things the other one is just better at, they accept that and learn to lean on and rely on each other.

    This kind of interdependent mutual friendship is something I really value, and it's the total opposite of the way I've felt with INFJ's - with them, I always feel like no matter how much I prove myself, I'm still never up to their standards and they still don't trust me or listen to me.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  9. #89
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    From what I can tell, there is no way to persuade an ESTP to fix his loyalties to you. You just have to be yourself, and if the ESTP likes you, if they respect you, then they'll be loyal and formidable friends. If they don't, they'll probably just ignore you until/unless you piss them off, then you'll be sorry. If they like and respect you and you piss them off, they'll be gracious enough to give you a chance to explain and if it's good, they won't kill you lol
    Curiously (and this is all based on my experiences with a particular ESTP and might not be generally representative), it seems that once you've earned their respect, the more "misunderstandings" you solve with the ESTP (and it seems again I have to labour the point that it's unlikely you'll be able to, or get the chance to, resolve anything unless you've already earned their loyalty), the more loyal they become. It's like the best friendship for them is one that comes through adversity.
    Very enlightening piece of writing Sub. Based on what I have read about ESTP types, they must respect you to want to be around you, otherwise as you say they disregard you. Otherwise they are loyal to a fault. This excerpt from personalitypage.com may shed some light:
    Many ESTPs have lifelong friends, because although they take life day by day, they feel tremendous loyal and "brotherhood" towards their peers. They're highly valued by their friends for their fun-loving natures and loyalty.
    And from what ESTPs say about themselves at bestfittype.com,
    I dont have a whole lot of really deep friendships, but yet I like to think people would describe me as dedicated, determined, and loyal. I sometimes have difficulty concealing what I am thinking or feeling. I dont like the pressure of having to say no. I can be somewhat cool but a genuine friend as a personal relationship evolves. Trustworthiness in personal relationships is very important, that we can disagree and still be friends, and if our backs were ever to the wall, Im there and I would expect the same. If I dont respect someone, I avoid them. If I can find another way to do business I will. I surround myself with people that I feel comfortable with, but theyre totally my selection.
    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    They are deceptively complex people, I think, and most of all I've found you just have to respect, above all, their freedom, to do and decide and think what they like. They can smell someone trying to manipulate, persuade or control them from a mile off and will never fall for it and even go the other way just on principle. Like I say, it seems just being yourself, and hoping that's enough, is your best bet.
    Again very accurate from all I know about that type. Yet again, I think that those who claim ESTPs not to be controlling should read Berens interaction styles booklet. I dont think that any of the In Charge types consider themselves controlling or having to be the leader, however the proof is in the pudding on how people react to you. In fact ESTPs who have confirmed their types admit that they like being in control. Hmmm.. a thought came to me about myself.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    Reading through this thread and the type description ESTPs sound like interesting, fun characters but also like a bit too much work in the longterm. I am not sure I could deal with someone on a regular basis who is very confrontational and attention-seeking.
    I don't think that ESTPs are attention seekers. In fact they usually prefer independence and enjoy working autonomously. I again think that this type gets a bad rap and most who have confirmed their type as ESTP do not see themselves the way portrayed by Keirsey and others. In fact Myers-Briggs does not seem them this way as well, calling the ESP types the most realistic types. Here are a few excerpts from the Promoter Executor type at bestfittype.com:
    The most important thing in relationships is absolute autonomy and independence. I admit I like to be in control and yet Im kind of easygoing in that I just want freedom. Freedom to me is leave me alone, let me do it. Anything that constrains me around that I dont like and kind of rebel against. I dont like to be told what to do or what to think. And although I know its good for me, I dont like feedback either. It takes a lot to rattle me, and even then I just go on. I tend not to dwell on things, but sometimes I have a tendency to imagine worst-case scenarios, especially when I am stressed.

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