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  1. #1
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Default The bane of your existence and intuitve narcissism

    I've been floating around various MBTI related websites since I found out about MBTI in 2004. One thing I have consistently, without fail noticed is the distinct vein of antipathy towards Ss, particularly SJs.

    First of all, I'm sick of intuitives acting like they're some more evolved human being that if only the pissant little Ss that populate the world would disappear they would have some type of utopia on earth. Oh, we could keep a few around to pick up the garbage (ISTJs I suppose) and fix our cars (ISTPs?), but the rest can all die.

    Yes, yes, I know you're so misunderstood. No one understands what a complex intuitive you are. You're so developed and can't be bothered with anything sensor related. And then some people put their 95% N score in their sig like it's significant or something. Check this out...if you are unable to get along with the most of the Ss you meet I dare say they are not the problem. If you find yourself blaming your difficulties in getting along with a person or group of people on "they're an S," Run, don't walk, to the your nearest library or bookstore and make a beeline to the self-help section.

    Then we have the fact that intuitives can't withstand the cultural hegemony that SJs represent. They encroach upon your life so much and crush your fragile soul. You should emerge a diamond. I'm beginning to think that SJs are not the unreasonable ones. Where is your stamina and perseverance? I wonder what type has those qualities on tap? What was with Muhammed and that mountain again? When I encounter SJs that are so rigid that they won't bend even if it would benefit them (and that's very rare), I just leave them alone. I don't stew, I don't get angry. Even other SJs think they're crazy. It's actually kinda funny to me. And of course, intuitives never display such behavior.

    Everyone is programmed. Don't think you aren't just because you're intuitive. Most people don't realize they're programmed (Ns included). Even when people become aware of their programming they don't bother to change it (Ns included). And if you do become aware of your programming and you want to change it all you're doing is choosing another program. Once again, get over yourself.

    And if anyone is worried about appearing inauthentic, please believe it's me. When I get around different types of people, sometimes I don't even recognize myself. But I know who I am at my core and I don't worry anymore. When it's appropriate and I'm around a bunch of SJs, I say what the fuck I want to and act how I want. At best I'll get a you're so silly and at worst I'll get a dirty look. Don't think I haven't encountered that SJ mentality I hear people complaining about. When it's wrong, it feels insurmountable. But when is it ever right? I never read Ns giving SJs their due credit. All I hear is they won't let me be me !!

    And I just love how whenever someone's having a problem with another person, they give their type as if that's the reason. Rarely does anyone approach the problem from an individual level. And then we give advice addressing their type and not their person. Most advice fits with most people. Who doesn't want to feel acknowledged and appreciated? Who doesn't want to hear a job well done or a thank you? Who doesn't want to be left alone sometimes (yes even Extroverts feel that way once in a blue moon).

    I wish more intuitives would be critical of themselves and not SJs. Maybe some of the problems intuitives have with them would be eliminated if the blaming would stop. There are problems endemic to being human. No amount of Jungian typology is going to erase that. Once you're dead, you won't have to worry about it, so that should be your twinkling light at the end of the tunnel. DEATH.

    And you know when the end comes, and it's all about survival I'm finding the closest ESTJ or ISTP I can lay my hands on and offering my ovaries. I think I'd have better chances and start the newer and improved next generation of Ns.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #2
    heart on fire
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    I think the factors you mention exist on these boards because in real life N types are mostly getting a lot of flack from S types, especially SJ, for being the way they are. I know I have.

    I think that finding places where N's hang out is a chance for people to vent about their difficulties with S types and to exchange helpful tips in dealing with them.

    Yeah, I guess you are so much more advanced than I am and can easily shrug such constant harassment off like raindrops without ever having a need to vent about such events among people more like you. I think you are worrying too much about a little venting.

    Hey, I see S types venting and complaining about N types ALL the time because it is acceptable for them as they are the majority opinion out there and their way is seen as being right more often. They have a very easy time finding each other. jmo.

    I agree with you in this: I also can't stand this notion that N types cannot do practical work and that when things get done there is always an S type of some sort to thank and the N type standing by helplessly running equations through their minds or something. When my car breaks down, my NF husband fixes it and no ISTP needed for that.

    I think your concern that N types don't criticize themselves enough is really misguided. Most N types that I have come to know spend much time on introspection and self analysis.

  3. #3
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I have seen both behaviors, so I see that both the posts have some value.

    I think online, since N's seem to dominate these personality-oriented sites (they seem more interested in the topic and have an affinity for the 'net), there is a lot of complaining about the S's... mostly because N is a minority and often feels misunderstood.

    Thus it only seems expected for many of them to finally be relieved to find a place where they can air out their grievances... and sometimes it does get too bitter or vindictive, but that's where some people are at and so I try to accept that and not get TOO heavy on people for over-venting (although I like to rein it in after awhile).

    I remember going through that phase earlier in my life, the first time I realized there were others like me, I was not alone, and I had people around whom actually could understand my experiences; and I remember being angry with being constantly beaten down by S types.

    And in real life, it does get frustrating to be told that I'm too moody, or not specific enough, or too conceptual, or too impractical, or not pragmatic enough. I recall FAR too many times where members of the family (not even realizing it) would make jokes at my expense, that felt very demeaning to me... as if being artistic and creative means I am suddenly incapable of drawing a straight line or doing something technical.

    It's frustrating to not be allowed to build things (shelves, etc.) for myself because I am not "exacting" enough due to my N and P natures (not compared to those ISTJs out there!), so I have to let the "S's" do it, or not be permitted to clean things or fold laundry because the SJ's always do it better than me... (!)

    Oh my, yes, the discrimination goes both ways. It's just that the S bitching usually occurs IRL, whereas you will find a lot more N bitching online.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #4
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I think the factors you mention exist on these boards because in real life N types are mostly getting a lot of flack from S types, especially SJ, for being the way they are. I know I have.

    I think that finding places where N's hang out is a chance for people to vent about their difficulties with S types and to exchange helpful tips in dealing with them.

    Yeah, I guess you are so much more advanced than I am and can easily shrug such constant harassment off like raindrops without ever having a need to vent about such events among people more like you. I think you are worrying too much about a little venting.

    Hey, I see S types venting and complaining about N types ALL the time because it is acceptable for them as they are the majority opinion out there and their way is seen as being right more often. They have a very easy time finding each other. jmo.

    I agree with you in this: I also can't stand this notion that N types cannot do practical work and that when things get done there is always an S type of some sort to thank and the N type standing by helplessly running equations through their minds or something. When my car breaks down, my NF husband fixes it and no ISTP needed for that.

    I think your concern that N types don't criticize themselves enough is really misguided. Most N types that I have come to know spend much time on introspection and self analysis.
    Is it really constant harassment you face? I find that when people are introduced to MBTI it's just a vocabulary to say why they don't get along with people, not to use it to get along with other people. My criticism is not misguided, because it's mostly what I see on these boards. I rarely see anybody saying anything good about SJs and I wonder how I've managed to avoid all the flack you mentioned.

    It's like people talk about SJs like they're children that aren't capable of any introspection. Maybe I've been around a weird bunch my whole life. All we really have are our experiences and I admit it seems my experiences aren't in line with a number of other Ns. Both my parents are SJs, my sis is SP, and I work with, lived with Ss my whole life and most of the SJs I know are reasonable human beings. I don't even have to speak slowly, use small words, and give concrete examples when I talk to most SJs.

    I vent about people and I think that others should be allowed to vent, but I don't ascribe my problems with them to their type. It's like once a person has been identified as SJ then it's open season on them. When that venting is always about one particular type, I start to think that the venting is skewed.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  5. #5
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Maybe some of the problems [insert group 1] have with [insert group 2] would be eliminated if the blaming would stop. There are problems endemic to being human.
    I think this is the main problem.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I've been floating around various MBTI related websites since I found out about MBTI in 2004. One thing I have consistently, without fail noticed is the distinct vein of antipathy towards Ss, particularly SJs.

    First of all, I'm sick of intuitives acting like they're some more evolved human being that if only the pissant little Ss that populate the world would disappear they would have some type of utopia on earth. Oh, we could keep a few around to pick up the garbage (ISTJs I suppose) and fix our cars (ISTPs?), but the rest can all die.

    Yes, yes, I know you're so misunderstood. No one understands what a complex intuitive you are. You're so developed and can't be bothered with anything sensor related. And then some people put their 95% N score in their sig like it's significant or something. Check this out...if you are unable to get along with the most of the Ss you meet I dare say they are not the problem. If you find yourself blaming your difficulties in getting along with a person or group of people on "they're an S," Run, don't walk, to the your nearest library or bookstore and make a beeline to the self-help section.

    Then we have the fact that intuitives can't withstand the cultural hegemony that SJs represent. They encroach upon your life so much and crush your fragile soul. You should emerge a diamond. I'm beginning to think that SJs are not the unreasonable ones. Where is your stamina and perseverance? I wonder what type has those qualities on tap? What was with Muhammed and that mountain again? When I encounter SJs that are so rigid that they won't bend even if it would benefit them (and that's very rare), I just leave them alone. I don't stew, I don't get angry. Even other SJs think they're crazy. It's actually kinda funny to me. And of course, intuitives never display such behavior.

    Everyone is programmed. Don't think you aren't just because you're intuitive. Most people don't realize they're programmed (Ns included). Even when people become aware of their programming they don't bother to change it (Ns included). And if you do become aware of your programming and you want to change it all you're doing is choosing another program. Once again, get over yourself.

    And if anyone is worried about appearing inauthentic, please believe it's me. When I get around different types of people, sometimes I don't even recognize myself. But I know who I am at my core and I don't worry anymore. When it's appropriate and I'm around a bunch of SJs, I say what the fuck I want to and act how I want. At best I'll get a you're so silly and at worst I'll get a dirty look. Don't think I haven't encountered that SJ mentality I hear people complaining about. When it's wrong, it feels insurmountable. But when is it ever right? I never read Ns giving SJs their due credit. All I hear is they won't let me be me !!

    And I just love how whenever someone's having a problem with another person, they give their type as if that's the reason. Rarely does anyone approach the problem from an individual level. And then we give advice addressing their type and not their person. Most advice fits with most people. Who doesn't want to feel acknowledged and appreciated? Who doesn't want to hear a job well done or a thank you? Who doesn't want to be left alone sometimes (yes even Extroverts feel that way once in a blue moon).

    I wish more intuitives would be critical of themselves and not SJs. Maybe some of the problems intuitives have with them would be eliminated if the blaming would stop. There are problems endemic to being human. No amount of Jungian typology is going to erase that. Once you're dead, you won't have to worry about it, so that should be your twinkling light at the end of the tunnel. DEATH.

    And you know when the end comes, and it's all about survival I'm finding the closest ESTJ or ISTP I can lay my hands on and offering my ovaries. I think I'd have better chances and start the newer and improved next generation of Ns.
    It is always great to hear an Idealistic point of view. What you're forgetting is that it's quite the opposite. All NTs want is to be understood. They have been persecuted their entire life for not "fitting in" to the way the majority thinks. Rationals are a small percentage of the population and are constantly looked upon by SJs as "crazy", "non-conforming", "bad", etc.

    Have you read the book, "Wicked" by Gregory Maguire? It's about the Wicked Witch of the West in the Land of Oz. Let's face it, she was an NT and look what happened to her. When NTs rant and rave about SJs, it's because that they are tired of being misunderstood and labeled as different. NTs want people to celebrate that they are different. This is a great forum to discuss those types of concerns. After all, it's a lonely world out there for the Wicked Witch of the West.
    Last edited by Zhash; 07-09-2007 at 04:24 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Is it really constant harassment you face? I find that when people are introduced to MBTI it's just a vocabulary to say why they don't get along with people, not to use it to get along with other people. My criticism is not misguided, because it's mostly what I see on these boards. I rarely see anybody saying anything good about SJs and I wonder how I've managed to avoid all the flack you mentioned.

    It's like people talk about SJs like they're children that aren't capable of any introspection. Maybe I've been around a weird bunch my whole life. All we really have are our experiences and I admit it seems my experiences aren't in line with a number of other Ns. Both my parents are SJs, my sis is SP, and I work with, lived with Ss my whole life and most of the SJs I know are reasonable human beings. I don't even have to speak slowly, use small words, and give concrete examples when I talk to most SJs.

    I vent about people and I think that others should be allowed to vent, but I don't ascribe my problems with them to their type. It's like once a person has been identified as SJ then it's open season on them. When that venting is always about one particular type, I start to think that the venting is skewed.
    This is interesting. Why do you participate then? If I felt that way, I wouldn't bother coming on board to read the posts. I'd participate in another forum. Why waste your precious time?

    I think you're blowing things out of proportion.

  8. #8
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhash View Post
    It is always great to hear an Idealistic point of view. What you're forgetting is that it's quite the opposite. All NTs want is to be understood. They have been persecuted their entire life for not "fitting in" to the way the majority thinks. Rationals are a small percentage of the population and are constantly looked upon by SJs as "crazy", "non-conforming", "bad", etc.

    Have you read the book, "Wicked" by Gregory Maguire? It's about the Wicked Witch of the West in the Land of Oz. Let's face it, she was an NT and look what happened to her. When NTs rant and rave about SJs, it's because that they are tired of being misunderstood and labeled as different. NTs want people to celebrate that they are different. This is a great forum to discuss those types of concerns. After all, it's a lonely world out there for the Wicked Witch of the North.
    No I haven't read the book, I'll take a look. And I'd like to add there are many other ways of not fitting in with the majority that have nothing to do with typology and are much more salient.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhash View Post
    This is interesting. Why do you participate then? If I felt that way, I wouldn't bother coming on board to read the posts. I'd participate in another forum. Why waste your precious time?

    I think you're blowing things out of proportion.
    I don't think I'm blowing anything out of proportion. Yes my language was a bit dramatic, but have you even taken a cursory glance at other MBTI related forums, besides INTPc? Go to Yahoo and look up any MBTI groups. Thread upon thread of, "SJs are ruining my life." Do you not think your thread about ISFJ Inflexibilty is a bit out of proportion?

    It's like people focus on the 1 SJ that annoys them and ignore the 10 others that are not a problem and I don't get that.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #9
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    This is an interesting thread, since it sounds sort of like me when I'm stressed and suffering from Fe overload....
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    It's like people focus on the 1 SJ that annoys them and ignore the 10 others that are not a problem and I don't get that.
    Even the SJ out there that I happen to love, do drive me crazy with parts of their behavior. Venting about it either with my N type husband or here online gives me chance to get my frustrations out in a harmless way without snapping at them over things they probably cannot help.

    It is not the big deal that you seem to want to make it into. I happen to know that my behavior and manner of viewing the world drives them crazy and they aren't all that interested in understanding me. It is just the way it is.

    I am not saying S types are evil people without good qualities. I think you are the one taking comments out of context. The OP in that ISxJ thread expressed a desire to communicate better with that person, the OP was not just trying to be down on SJ. To my viewpoint, the OP in that thread was coming here to express frustration and to ask for viewpoints on how to reduce friction between them and the ISxJ in their life and could be a very positive thing as it gives them a chance to relieve some of their tensions over the relationship and to brainstorm over how to create a less tense relationship. What is so negative about that?

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