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[MBTI General] The bane of your existence and intuitve narcissism

Zhash

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My middle brother (also ESFP) who was born between two introverts, he drove us nuts for the attention he needed. I honestly wish that the family would have left me the hell alone a lot of the time and bloody well focus on him so he could burn off the energy.

They should have insisted on having him participate in sports. It would have helped.
 

proteanmix

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Perhaps you have less trouble because you are also an extrovert and thus have your own ways of making up for your weirdness. Then again, I have a brother (ISFP), and two friends (ISTJ, ESFP) who I do enjoy being around even though they may drive me crazy sometimes. My two grandmothers (ESFJ, ISFJ) have their good moments and bad moments, but I still love them.

My real complaints? My mother (ESFP) who is likely more of a pain in my ass due to her being the daughter of an alcoholic who never got therapy and instead feels everyone else owes her for the pain. My middle brother (also ESFP) who was born between two introverts, he drove us nuts for the attention he needed. I honestly wish that the family would have left me the hell alone a lot of the time and bloody well focus on him so he could burn off the energy. (Yes I blame family culture for that one, big reason why I hate being the eldest).

Well I find being the child of an alcoholic a more plausible reason for any dysfunction than your mother being an ESFP. It seems like people will stop at ESFP and go from there instead of going with the more obvious reason. That was my point in the beginning, that people (Ns) (from what I read on N-dominated MBTI forums when this type of thing happens) stop at type and don't seek any more reason for behavior. It's lazy thinking.
 

runvardh

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Well I find being the child of an alcoholic a more plausible reason for any dysfunction than your mother being an ESFP. It seems like people will stop at ESFP and go from there instead of going with the more obvious reason. That was my point in the beginning, that people (Ns) (from what I read on N-dominated MBTI forums when this type of thing happens) stop at type and don't seek any more reason for behavior. It's lazy thinking.

I know it's the reason, her being ESFP is only the conduit through which the problem is expressed along with how she dealt with hyperthyroid and chronic migraines.
 

runvardh

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They should have insisted on having him participate in sports. It would have helped.

My mother was already too much of a mess to think of anyone else other than herself. She just let him get away with whatever he wanted till he directly annoyed her. My father would get us all to do laps around the house whenever we were with him. The rest of the family we dealt with, though, was part Asian and resulted in me (being the eldest) getting 95% of the attention while my extroverted brother bounced in the background thinking of ways to take his vengeance out.
 

Zhash

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I know it's the reason, her being ESFP is only the conduit through which the problem is expressed along with how she dealt with hyperthyroid and chronic migraines.

What's with her hyperthyroid--was she swinging off the chandelier?
 

runvardh

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What's with her hyperthyroid--was she swinging off the chandelier?

It would go into overdrive then cut out from over working itself, then go into overdrive again. I just learned to hide in my room or run outside unless I absolutely had to be around my mother for some reason she required. The nickname I coined for her and my brothers agreed with it: Hurricane Heather... (sorry cafe)
 

Totenkindly

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Well I find being the child of an alcoholic a more plausible reason for any dysfunction than your mother being an ESFP. It seems like people will stop at ESFP and go from there instead of going with the more obvious reason. That was my point in the beginning, that people (Ns) (from what I read on N-dominated MBTI forums when this type of thing happens) stop at type and don't seek any more reason for behavior. It's lazy thinking.

Do they? Maybe I just overlook it, I didn't remember that being the trend... It just feels like a large generalization to me. But I guess it doesn't matter...

As soon as someone says their parent(s) were alcoholics, the thing type seems most useful for is simply determining the probable impact of the behavior on the child (based on the parent's type, determining how the alcoholic behavior probably played out, and the child's type in order to determine which anxieties were increased / catered to and what coping mechanisms were used and distorted).
 

ptgatsby

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Do they? Maybe I just overlook it, I didn't remember that being the trend... It just feels like a large generalization to me. But I guess it doesn't matter...

I'm going to interject here and say that this is absolutely the trend. Almost every negative attribute that someone has ends up being "a type thing". Parents weren't responsible? It's cause they were SPs. Parents dominated you? They were SJs. Parents were perfect? Cause they were NTs (or sometimes NFs, but then you get the flaky NF parent topics sometimes, though sometimes you get the NT cold parent thing, just not at the two centrals).

There is a huge bias in how people see people when they start applying type... and it happens inside and outside the forum. This is one of the major reasons why general knowledge of type is actually detrimental, rather than the syllabus that the professionals coach with. It's out in spades on these forums... a lot of 'extreme' concepts being introduced into people's frameworks... functional views, something that is rarely useful in group situations, is a good example, as are the concepts of behavioural absolutes being linked to cognitive theory.

It's a perfect example of how Ns are inferior to Ss. Over application of dreamy systems that drift away from the fundamental theories and applications.

In any case, this is one of the reasons why it wasn't used at my workplace.
 

spirilis

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I see proteanmix's original point, albeit that came off rather childish, inflammatory maybe (better choice of word). The fact of the matter is, MBTI provides a sorting method to categorize human beings--any time you do that, you run the risk of discrimination. (see: race, gender, ethnicity, popularity, clothing style, etc.). The chief point she was trying to make is that it's discrimination--and it is NOT okay.

I'll whine on my little soap box a minute and admit I've had my fair share of flak, ridicule or general ostracism from people where the root cause was just too vague to understand, but in retrospect looked eerily similar to an S/N conflict of personality. Fact of the matter is, I didn't give a shit. I let that stuff slide off my back and keep hauling. If I find a conflict of interest which may directly affect me, regardless of whether it's a stereotypical SJ vs. NT viewpoint or whatnot, I will fight my position and take the battle to my opponent's front door, in whichever format is required to win. (Need to come up with concrete examples on why X won't work but Y will? Sure thing, give me 15 minutes...)

I'll also say that out of all the friends I've ever had, many of my N-type ones somehow stick together with me even after years of separation or loss of contact, while most of my SJ/SP friends have virtually disappeared off the face of the earth to me. This happened even long before I knew about MBTI and S vs. N, and I've discovered the distinction through past reflection. But I don't care, I'll hang with anyone if given the opportunity.

Even then, there are exceptions. An old xNFJ friend left the online forums/blogs I frequented around 2-3yrs ago and never followed up contact. An old ESTP friend from way back in elementary school/boy scouting/etc., I hang out with him every summer at his parents' house near the ocean.
 

cafe

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The nickname I coined for her and my brothers agreed with it: Hurricane Heather... (sorry cafe)
:laugh: No worries. It's funny.

You have my sympathy, BTW. My maternal unit is an ESFP, too.
 

rivercrow

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I'm going to interject here and say that this is absolutely the trend. Almost every negative attribute that someone has ends up being "a type thing". Parents weren't responsible? It's cause they were SPs. Parents dominated you? They were SJs. Parents were perfect? Cause they were NTs (or sometimes NFs, but then you get the flaky NF parent topics sometimes, though sometimes you get the NT cold parent thing, just not at the two centrals).

There is a huge bias in how people see people when they start applying type... and it happens inside and outside the forum. This is one of the major reasons why general knowledge of type is actually detrimental, rather than the syllabus that the professionals coach with. It's out in spades on these forums... a lot of 'extreme' concepts being introduced into people's frameworks... functional views, something that is rarely useful in group situations, is a good example, as are the concepts of behavioural absolutes being linked to cognitive theory.

...

In any case, this is one of the reasons why it wasn't used at my workplace.

This is one reason why I really don't want to teach type in an HR setting. The interesting parts of type come into play after the basic introduction.

I've also heard the same biases from some HR trainers, which really bothers me.
 

proteanmix

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@ spirilis

How would you even know the reason why you don't keep in touch or the problems you had/have is because of S or N if it weren't for MBTI? What would you have attributed it to? And I find many threads about what a scourge upon humanity (yes I know I'm being dramatic) SJs are childish myself.

I don't want to go into the whole MBTI is just a tool thing because I hope we all realize that. It's when people start deciding that S and N (orare the reasons they have for problems and don't seek any further.
 

rivercrow

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:huh:

I introduced my parents to type this weekend. When I explained S:N, mom said, "So Sensors are blue collar and the others are white collar."

In my family, blue collar=respectable / hard-working / honest and white-collar=suspicious / conniving / fluffy. If you can't use information in a practical way, then it is useless.

That was an interesting concept to straighten out. But I could see how she'd make that leap.
 

Totenkindly

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I introduced my parents to type this weekend. When I explained S:N, mom said, "So Sensors are blue collar and the others are white collar." In my family, blue collar=respectable / hard-working / honest and white-collar=suspicious / conniving / fluffy. If you can't use information in a practical way, then it is useless.

What's funny is how much baggage we bring into conversations like that without realizing it: When I read your mother's analogy, I automatically assumed that the "blue collar" comment would be the insult.

But then again, I would definitely be lumped as "white collar."

We all have a spin on the data.
 

heart

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@ spirilis

How would you even know the reason why you don't keep in touch or the problems you had/have is because of S or N if it weren't for MBTI? What would you have attributed it to?

Even though this is directed at someone else....Speaking for myself, before I knew about N verses S I tended to believe my mother's opinion that I was wrong and utterly flawed to be the way I was and I was always fighting against it, trying to change and not being able to and feeling like a failure for it.

Being able to have a label for the difference and being able to study about what it is and is not makes it easier to see what I can do to be more in touch and what I can do to make more of the N part of me.
 

heart

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:huh:

I introduced my parents to type this weekend. When I explained S:N, mom said, "So Sensors are blue collar and the others are white collar."

In my family, blue collar=respectable / hard-working / honest and white-collar=suspicious / conniving / fluffy. If you can't use information in a practical way, then it is useless.

That was an interesting concept to straighten out. But I could see how she'd make that leap.

My MIL's answer to being introduced to the idea of N verses S was to ask "So what can they do to fix these N types?" She had a simiar reaction to the idea of Introversion as well. :rolli:
 

rivercrow

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What's funny is how much baggage we bring into conversations like that without realizing it: When I read your mother's analogy, I automatically assumed that the "blue collar" comment would be the insult.

But then again, I would definitely be lumped as "white collar."

We all have a spin on the data.

Yeah -- just goes to show that we all think differently.

Oh, I am the black sheep of the family with that degree in English Literature. Even though my siblings are a pharmacist and RN/audiologist respectively, my parents seem to view their activities as "skilled trade," I think because they do practical things -- dispensing drugs, resolving hearing problems.

Dad kept complaining that all the type stuff was interesting theory but pretty useless until I showed him some uses (for instance, Keirsey's argument that kids are probably SPs and need SP-targeted teaching methods rather than being ADD/ADHD and needing drugs).
 

spirilis

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I would have attributed it to "unknown," or more likely, invented a reason. (eg "We just didn't hang out that much anyway" or something similar)

How would I know the reasoning behind our lack of contact was due to S/N? I wouldn't. What I am saying, is that I have noticed a correlation--the ones I have kept in contact after 7+ years are N's (INFP, INTJ, ENFP, ENFJ to be specific), with the exception of one ESTP, and many of the others I recall (ISTJ, ISTP, ESFJ, ESFJ, ESTJ, xNFJ, INFJ) I've lost contact.
Correlation does not equal causation, so they say, so I can guarantee there are reasons for this way beyond personality type compatibility. And still, the sample size is too small to consider this a coherent pattern, although one does seem to show.

I agree that using type as an explanation for one person's behavior or issues is not okay, as it is a shallow and ambiguous reason, bordering on discriminatory, especially when correlation among an entire subgroup (eg S's) is linked with causation of such behaviors.
 

proteanmix

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Even though this is directed at someone else....Speaking for myself, before I knew about N verses S I tended to believe my mother's opinion that I was wrong and utterly flawed to be the way I was and I was always fighting against it, trying to change and not being able to and feeling like a failure for it.

Being able to have a label for the difference and being able to study about what it is and is not makes it easier to see what I can do to be more in touch and what I can do to make more of the N part of me.

And I have no problem with finally having a vocabulary to describe these differences. But when Ns turn around and do the same things they complain SJs do to them, then everything turns ugly and destructive and MBTI does more harm than good.
 

rivercrow

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My MIL's answer to being introduced to the idea of N verses S was to ask "So what can they do to fix these N types?" She had a simiar reaction to the idea of Introversion as well. :rolli:

Mom had a similar comment about type generally -- she's definitely from the "nurture" school. Surprisingly, dad leapt in with comments about brain wiring and nature.

That's when I pulled out my collection of physiological correlations. :D

I have to admit, the whole afternoon was more pleasant and interesting than I had anticipated. On the whole, my parents don't have use for silly theory, but by the time I left, mom was trying to figure out how to approach her pastor's wife.
 
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