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  1. #81
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    For instance, I don't much like the "Name 3 things that suck about NTs/NFs/SPs/SJs" threads because of the put-down nature of those threads.
    Amen. I hate these. I put up with them and I try to only bash my own type. USUALLY they seem to be done "tongue in cheek."
    Also, some folks may remember that when I was participating at INTP-Central I complained about the name and description of the non-INTP forum; but that was because I thought the management over there crossed a line when it institutionalized typism by making it part of the formal message board structure. (INTP-C management apparently disagreed, and that's their prerogative.)
    If you see this here, speak up. Often we have unrecognized type biases and may say stupid things unintentionally. I personally -- and I'm speaking as a mod -- take this seriously. A few people have seen me in Avenging Angel mode...

    Now, if we're saying stupid and inflammatory things intentionally...that's another matter.
    Hopefully in the long run everyone can remember that this is a mixed-type message board, understand that the traditional stereotypes aren't going to disappear anytime soon, not get too worked up when the stereotypes are abused, and remember to stay open to other viewpoints.

    Just my own opinion, of course.

    FL
    Stereotypes are useful insofar they point toward generalities. As long as we remember they are generalities and aren't truisms -- for that matter, as long as we recall that if we type someone else, we're only dealing with a hypothesis and not truth -- we should be able to keep on the high ground.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  2. #82
    Senior Member Littlelostnf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Just for the heck of it, I'm going to put my own spin on this. I'll inevitably do it in my own roundabout INFP way. And the subject is kind of a tangent; but maybe it will broaden the discussion a bit.



    I agree with Proteanmix's point here. The mods and admins have indicated once or twice that they would prefer a broader mix of MBTI personality types here and that they would specifically like to see more SP and SJ members. If iNtuitives are routinely trivializing Sensors or blaming them for everything that's wrong with the world, that's obviously going to be a deterrent to the recruitment of Sensor members.

    On the other hand, this is an MBTI-oriented message board and we tend not to tiptoe around MBTI differences here. Introverts bash Extraverts for being gabby and brain-dead. Extraverts blame Introverts for not trying hard enough to reach out to others and they have no sympathy for the social woes of Introverts. NTs call NFs oversensitive wimps, and NFs call NTs cold and cruel. And so on. We all know the stereotypes, and we regularly exploit them for laughs and occasionally use them to take a dig at other members.

    In this kind of atmosphere, it's going to be tough to impose a consensus on how to deal with MBTI stereotypes about Ss.

    My own personal opinion: I wish people would go easy when using negative MBTI stereotypes. For instance, I don't much like the "Name 3 things that suck about NTs/NFs/SPs/SJs" threads because of the put-down nature of those threads. But on the other hand, I can also see the argument that this is an MBTI message board and it's better to get the stereotypes out in the open as part of a frank discussion of MBTI subjects.

    Also, some folks may remember that when I was participating at INTP-Central I complained about the name and description of the non-INTP forum; but that was because I thought the management over there crossed a line when it institutionalized typism by making it part of the formal message board structure. (INTP-C management apparently disagreed, and that's their prerogative.) On the other hand, I personally don't mind it so much when other individual members bash INFPs. I can give as good as I get. Besides, INFPs have strengths of their own; I can sit out the threads where I'm weak and then jump into a thread that fits my strengths and dominate it, and good luck to any of my detractors who might challenge me on my own turf.

    Anyway, the point of those last two paragraphs is that I can see arguments both for and against allowing Ns to air their personal grievances about Ss. I don't really feel strongly either way.

    Meantime, I also keep in mind that (in my experience) Ss tend to have a lot of disdain for ditzy, schizy, whiny, N dilettantes. From the Sensor point of view, Ss are the sober, experienced adults, while Ns are the idealistic starry-eyed teenagers of the world.

    Ns brainstorm and fantasize about how nice it would be to get rid of all cars in order to reduce the greenhouse effect. Meantime Ss are laughing at the Ns and shaking their heads, because the Ss just finished a shift working as part of a team of cops and paramedics untangling a high-speed six-car pile-up on the highway. It's all fine and dandy to brainstorm about life 50 years from now, but in the meantime someone needs to have a Sensor's mastery of observation, detail, and procedure and the presence of mind to handle the real-life emergencies happening on the roads right now.

    Ns bitch and moan about globalization issues or the white-collar rat race or the paper chase in bureaucracies. Meanwhile, S admin and management specialists laugh at the dilettante Ns who have no idea what they're talking about. The S specialists have read through thousands of pages of corporate directives, administered pension funds, granted education allowances for dependents, worked up merit allocation coefficients for pay increases for employees, sat on grievance tribunals for disgruntled workers, audited budgets for departments, etc. They know the corporations aren't going to disappear anytime soon, and they know why.

    MBTI stereotypes cut both ways. Ns tend to see themselves as visionaries and they see Ss as dreary, unimaginative, fussy drudges. But in my experience Ss tend to see themselves as responsible, clear-eyed, sensible adults and they see Ns as oblivious, whiny, teenaged dilettantes. And in that light, name-calling may only be a facet of a larger problem.

    I sometimes wonder what Ss think about the discussions that take place here on MBTI-Central. There's a lot of whacked-out, dimwitted theorizing about how nice it would be to kill off big portions of the population, get rid of organized religion, get rid of the corporations, etc. As the real-world "adults" of the MBTI spectrum, Ss probably aren't going to have much to say in such discussions. And even when discussions are more down-to-earth and results-oriented, Ns frequently discount any first-person experience as anecdotal, a mere snapshot of a point in time having no bearing on future trends. So you get a big disconnect between the Ss with their excellent powers of observation and first-hand experience of the world vs. the Ns who deal in overviews and theories and only want to discuss broad trends and future developments.

    I think the name-calling may be a symptom of this larger disconnect in world view. Adults live in the present and take rules and schedules seriously; teens are oriented toward the future and value idealism more than a paycheck. Adults get in a rut and lose sight of the possibilities; teens are blind to the line between sense and nonsense because they've never had to put their money where their mouth is. If adults and teens refuse to consider each other's point of view, then they aren't going to enjoy each other's company. Mutual name-calling may be a complication, but it's not necessarily at the root of what's keeping them apart.

    On the positive side, some Ss continue to post over here, perhaps to broaden their own horizons and learn about Ns, and perhaps to remind Ns that a real world exists out there and recount some first-hand experience to help Ns bring their theories back down to earth and anchor them in reality. And in the meantime by participating on a mixed-type message board Ns presumably indicate that they are open to opposing views, at least in theory.

    If the quantity of Ss ever reaches critical mass, we'll probably see more name-calling rather than less. As I said above, in my experience Ss tend to have a lot of disdain for ditzy, schizy, whiny N dilettantes. It doesn't always come out as irritation; sometimes Ss feel positively paternal and protective toward the loopy, occasionally-brilliant, occasionally-vulnerable Ns. But inevitably there is going to be irritation and defensiveness, and frictions on the message board are going to lead to abuse of stereotypes and some fireworks at times.

    Hopefully in the long run everyone can remember that this is a mixed-type message board, understand that the traditional stereotypes aren't going to disappear anytime soon, not get too worked up when the stereotypes are abused, and remember to stay open to other viewpoints.

    Just my own opinion, of course.

    FL
    That was all kinds of fantastic. Thank you for the mature...well thought out response.

    llnf
    for my life is slowed up by thought and the need to understand what I am living.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post


    Also, some folks may remember that when I was participating at INTP-Central I complained about the name and description of the non-INTP forum; but that was because I thought the management over there crossed a line when it institutionalized typism by making it part of the formal message board structure. (INTP-C management apparently disagreed, and that's their prerogative.)

    FL
    When one takes in the whole atmosphere of that board, they make fun of themselves as much as the other types and they have their own brand of humor, taking that into account the name of that section is not really so horrible. I think they mostly like getting a rise out of non-INTPs, mainly the NF.

  4. #84
    respect the brick C.J.Woolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I think the name-calling may be a symptom of this larger disconnect in world view.
    I think you're right. Gordon Dickson addressed this sort of thing in his Dorsai novels. There was a group called the Friendlies, who were dour religious fundamentalists. They were portrayed in an unflattering light until Soldier, Ask Not, which was told from their point of view. Frank Herbert did the same thing with the Bene Gesserit and the Tleilaxu in the later Dune novels.

    My own life experience has made me more S, F, and J. (I'm still not at all fond of E, though.)

    Excellent post, FL.

  5. #85
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    This is a great thread, you freaky geeks.

  6. #86
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    For me, type bias says more about the person expressing it than the subject group. That's just how I usually respond to it. I agree with FineLine that if there were more Ss on these types of forums, there would probably be more arguing and contention than less. With greater numbers they'd probably start giving as good as they get. As it is, why should they bother? However, I think eventually it could get to the point where there is mutual respect, if not understanding.

    I usually stay on the Socionics forums now, even though I really prefer discussing MBTI. But on the Socionics forums there are far more Ss, and I've found that there is less S-bashing. Every type is bashed (even my lovely, harmless type!!) but every type is defended by someone who knows (if not a member of that type, then someone close enough). So we get past the bashing and have actual discussions. Education and clarity is supposed to be the point. I understand people want to vent but when will they grow past that?

    Funny, I never got to vent about Ss because all my life I thought it was my introversion that was causing me problems, not being an N. It took me longer to overcome my bias against extroverts. I'm still working on my bias against INTPs :-).

  7. #87
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    We definitely need for Sensors on this board to balance perspectives.

    The unfortunate part of MBTI is that people get into a habit of typing people who never took the test. They form stereotypes in their minds of which types cause them problems and then when they encounter problem people, they assume they share that type. I've done some of that myself, but attempt to hold it at arm's length. People don't like getting hurt, so they try to find ways to perceive the hurt before it happens. That's when MBTI gets used as a stereotyping tool.

    This board should be a great place to start getting a balance. I know sometimes I've gotten lazy and made comment about Sensors. It's because their presence is so rare on these boards in the past that it can go unchecked. I'd really love to have someone with that type push back when I make that mistake. Also, it's never an either/or. Everyone has both. As the matter-of-fact, two of the strongest Sensors I know have this very whimsical imaginative side to them. It's really fun to see the unexpected sides of people emerging. The one thing that is especially crazy is suggesting that S's are less intelligent. That has always seemed ridiculous to me. The advantages to both are pretty obvious. I wish I had a little more S because I make mistakes as a result - very spacey girl here.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #88
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    On the positive side, some Ss continue to post over here, perhaps to broaden their own horizons and learn about Ns, and perhaps to remind Ns that a real world exists out there and recount some first-hand experience to help Ns bring their theories back down to earth and anchor them in reality. And in the meantime by participating on a mixed-type message board Ns presumably indicate that they are open to opposing views, at least in theory.
    More likely is they they will post here, the same as others, for some talks about MBTI with extra forums thrown in.

    I don't see type differences as being as huge as people make them out to be, I tend to get along fine with most people around me, and don't seem to have any more trouble communicating with one group of people than another. (I'm not the most socially skilled person, but that seem to apply in general, rather than based on group.) I haven't really felt like I've found a huge group of friends just on a couple of forums with mostly N types (and INTP central with people who share 3-4 letters), they have seemed as strange and hard ot understand as people in general.

    Another possibility, besides the difference factor, that may make certain types easier to attack, is that the annoying behaviour is more obvious. Stereotypical ESxJ annoying behavior involves direct confrontations and arguments, delivered all at the same time. Stereotypical INxP procrastination takes longer to notice and build up. Stereotypical "good" SJ behavior is harder to see, in that it involves basic tasks being done more or lless in the background and constantly, so they are not noticed as much as stereotypical good SP (sports, art, etc.) or NT (produces designs for something, large accomplishments involving planning, etc.) behaviors (I'm not completely sure what "good" NF behaviors would be, those often seemed murky. The more artistic ones would likely be noticeable, though.)

    I also notice the when people refer to S's, they most often talk about the SJ traits, rather than SP traits. (this may be a leftover from INTP central, I haven't checked other MBTI sites at all.)

  9. #89
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    While it would be interesting to see an N-dominated world (or even a commune), the fact is that very little would get done. Ss make up the vast majority of the people you deal with every day. If it wasn't for Ss, it would be impossible to drive quickly from place to place, service would suck everywhere (and, if they never existed to begin with, the concept would be seen as absurd), etc, etc, etc. These are the people that drive your transit buses so you don't have to, the people that build houses, cars, man the counters at countless businesses that you visit daily. Sure, some may annoy the crap out of me, some I could never live with for any real period of time, etc, etc, etc, but so do a lot of Ns, and, provided I only need to rarely deal with them on more than a brief impersonal level, I'd rather have them around to do all this stuff for me.

    Being an INTJ, it would drive me mad if I didn't have Ss to train to do stuff for me. You can create all the optimized methods for doing things in the world, but it means nothing if nobody does what you planned. The company I work for is dream-like in that way - I live in NTville, where we do nothing but solve problems, develop methods, design products, etc, etc, etc. Then, when we're done, we shunt everything off to SJ-land, where they put it all together, do what we've instructed, etc. Sure, it can be annoying to go over to SJ-land because I never remember all the stacks of paperwork I need, but that's a small price to pay. I can just return to NTville, grab a pre-signed, photocopied paper or three out of one of the cabinet drawers full of signed papers, write in the pertinent information, and I'm good. In SJ-land, I would have needed to actually talk to someone, justify why I needed the paper signed, have it done in triplicate before I came for the signature, and so-forth. I've worked in places like that, and it massively sucked.

    Luckily, slowly, I've been gaining the trust of the SJs, and some are even quite happy to help me by filling out paperwork, looking things up, etc, etc, etc.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  10. #90
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    This pic explains why we need so many hard-core Sensors:


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